Savage & North

[pohill]

I recently bought a Savage & North .36 that is in working condition (I fired it off last week). But I have a question concerning this revolver for anyone familiar with this gun: when you pull back on the ring and cock the hammer, the cylinder moves backwards, and when you release the ring the cylinder moves up againnt the forcing cone, forming a tight seal. On my gun, the seal formed is not as tight as it should be. Now, in the center of the pressure plate/thimble that pushes up against the cylinder, there is a slot (see pic 1). I am wondering if this is an adjustment slot that, when turned, will push the opposite end of the pressure plate further into the toggle inside the gun (see pic 2 and 3), which in turn will push the cylinder tighter against the barrel.
Any suggestions? This is a tough gun to find info on.
Thanks.
Pic one: pressure plate with slot

pressure plate in place

side view of pressure plate/thimble


original with tools (for adjusting?) This is not my gun.

[Hobie]

I have to admit, nobody has ever let me tear down their revolver. I'd have to look at it directly to be certain, but I'm thinking that there isn't much room for adjustment. Dirty, corroded or deformed mating surfaces can give indicators which might leave one to believe the cylinder wasn't being pushed forward sufficiently. Is the chamber mouth mating properly with the end of the barrel?

I can see where there is a screw head directily behind the cylinder, inside the mechanism, and in-line with the center of the cylinder. IF there is an adjustment point, I'd think that was it. It appears to have an angled mating surface there which might be part of the adjustment parameters.

The tool has blades for various screws and a nipple wrench. Whether one fits the adjustment mechanism, if such exists, I don't know. I would think so.

In as much as most other revolvers don't do this all, what are the indicators that tell you "the seal formed is not as tight as it should be"? After all, this gun IS 145 or so years old and it may never have functioned as you think it ought to have done.

However, that is darn neat and you've already done something few of us will ever get to do. Sounds like a magazine article should be in the works.

[pohill]

Thanks for replying.
Inside the gun there is a toggle that the rounded end of the pressure plate fits into. When you cock the ring, this toggle moves backwards (actually bends as if hinged, on that screw that you noted), and the pressure plate and cylinder follow. Release the ring and the toggle pushes forward on the pressure plate which moves the cylinder forward. I think there must be an adjustment because I put a shim between the pressure plate and the cylinder and the cylinder was then pushed up against the forcing cone of the barrel and formed a nice tight seal.
I'm thinking that the tool in the pic is an adjusting tool for this pressure plate.
Interesting gun: (note the two mainsprings)


In the 2nd pic, the ring is cocked back - note the space between the cylinder and barrel. In the 3rd pic the ring is released and the cylinder moves forward.

[Andrew]

That thing is really cool. I don't know a thing about it, but it is very cool.

[Hobie]

I'm sure the tool will work on the whatever once you ID it...

Could you take a pic like the first one but with the cocking ring (a lever of a sort) to the rear? Such small photos and not video makes it a bit difficult for these bifocal assisted eyes to discern some details. Thanks.

[pohill]

This is the gun with the ring pulled back. The two screws to the right hold the hand in place. The toggle is attached to the screw behind it (1st screw on left, under the hammer), and is bent upwards. When I release the ring that toggle will push forward against the pressure plate.



This was my summer for originals. I also bought an original Whitney .36 Navy.

[Hobie]

I looked. I don't know whether it is my poor eyesight, monitor or what but I can't see enough detail to say anything more.

I still think it is really neat that not only did you get one that works, you've shot it.

[AJMD429]

It does appear the central portion of the pressure plate may turn and alter the forward position during cycling. I'd use plenty of 'break free' before you torque that screw though. If you 'count' the turns you should always be able to un-adjust it to the original state if the theory is wrong.

You may be able to test occlusion without firing the gun by putting sesame-seed sized spots of very soft chewing gum on the engaging surfaces and seeing how flat it gets mashed.

[Ysabel Kid]

Just what I needed - another item to add to my ever-growing "wish list"...

COOL GUN!!!

[pohill]

New info on the Savage & North:
I emailed David Chicoine (Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West) yesterday and asked him about that slot in the pressure plate. He responded today (impressive and timely response):

"Hi Dave,
Yes, I am familiar with the Savage & North although it has been a good many years since I have had my hands on one. Because of the time lag, all I can do is suggest that you are probably correct that the slotted "screw" is an adjustment, just go slow and careful. I always recommend using about 300 degrees of heat and penetrating oil a few times to try and loosen up old rust and grease, that may help get things to turn easier.
Dave"

[Doc Hudson]

I can't add anything the way of information, but I must say that is a neat old popper. And let me add hearty agreement to Hobie's suggestion of a magazine article. IIRC, there were not a lot of those old S&N revolvers made, and I've not heard of one in shooting condition outside a museum. You really ought to write a big article about shooting and tinkering with this piece of history.

Any idea of the provenance oh it, or if is saw service in The War of Northern Aggression?

[pohill]

This one, serial #1021, has no military markings that I can find (the Whitney pictured next to it has quite a few). I recently bought a book, CIVIL WAR SMALL ARMS OF THE U.S. NAVY AND MARINES, which is pretty informative. It looks like approx 20,000 of these revolvers were made, most going to the military.
I contacted the historical society in Middletown, CT and they said that, unfortunately, most of the records of Savage & North Firearms Co. were lost, but they are going to send me what they can find. They suggested that I visit the Colt Collection at the CT State Library in Hartford, CT to find more info. I went there last summer and I'll tell ya, if you're ever in Hartford, CT check out that collection in the state library. It's free and open to the public (the only gun you can touch is a Gatling gun).
What magazine might be interested in this gun's story?

I'm going to have a Frog holster made up at some point:


Maybe this is my gun:

[Griff]

What magazine might be interested in this gun's story?

"Guns of the Old West".

[Doc Hudson]

What magazine might be interested in this gun's story?

"Guns of the Old West".

Civil War Times might also be interested, as well as American Rifleman, Shooting Times, Gun Week, and even Guns & Ammo.

About the only part of the gun press that would not be interested in a well written article on that Savage & North would the the ones dedicated to "Tactical" flatguns and UBR's, and the sniper wannabe's.

[pohill]

I figured out how the thimble/pressure plate piece of the Savage & North works; the slot does turn and is used to adjust the cylinder/barrel fit. It works great, too.
I heated it and used a break-free spray and it came apart in three pieces. The part with the slot is actually a locking collar - it retains the pointed end that extends into the gun after it is adjusted for length (or depth).
The pic isn't great but you can see the pieces.

[Pete44ru]

FYI - The May-June 1986 issue of the MAN AT ARMS, the NRA Journal for the American Arms Collector, has an in-depth article on these pistols, including many pics and patent drawings, by John D. McAulay.

If you're an NRA member (and if not you dang well ought to be), a call or letter to them should result in a copy for gratis, from NRA Member Services.

I don't own a scanner, or I'd offer copies.

[6pt-sika]

I've had one of those Savage revolvers for about 20 years .

But other then wipe it off with a silicone cloth every once in awhile thats all I've ever done with it !

I got this one from a rather large dealer in the subs of DC ! Traded a rebarreled Sako for it !

[hfcable]

wow, you are living out one of my fantasies, to fire one of these fantastic looking revolvers; [would also like to try a volcanic, and a walsh 12 shooter] and it is really a shame that no one makes replicas of any of these guns. they are not interesting to see and study but represent critical developments in the evolution of modern arms,
you are to be congratulated [ and of course greatly envied!!] thanks so much for showing this!

[Hobie]

A friend let me look at his Navy today but wouldn't let me open it up. Some of the nipples are broken but otherwise it is in pretty good condition. Getting back to your problem, is it that it doesn't move the cylinder far enough forward? I noticed that the mouth of one of his chambers had been deformed by hamhanded use of the loading lever.

[pohill]

Thanks for the help and suggestions (I'm going to try and locate that NRA article)

Savage & North update:
I had to do it again...I had to shoot it once more.
I brought it to the range. This time it was adjusted nice and tightly, with the cylinder snug against the forcing cone at full cock. The only problem was the roundballs I had - the largest ".36 caliber" I had was .380 and they're too small. I took a .380 and squished it a little flatter with a pair of plyers and bingo, it fit pretty well (even shaved a ring of lead when I rammed it into the chamber). I only loaded one chamber at a time but I gotta say, this gun is built like a tank and handled the 17 grs of black powder easily. The gun still does not have a front sight so it shoots pretty high, but I eventually managed to hit the paper target.
I checked the gun after every shot and completely stripped and cleaned it after the shooting session and I see no signs of damage anywhere. Two of the nipple holes in the cylinder have to be re-threaded (the nipples from a Ruger Old Army are the perfect size- short enough to clear the topstrap), and I'm looking for a gunsmith or machinist that might do the work. Add a new front sight and I'm back in time 148 yrs.
I also brought my Colt Paterson (repro) to the range and I'll tell ya, the Savage and North is a simple gun to reassemble compared to the Paterson.
In pieces:


The two Savage & North mainsprings compared to a Colt 1861 .36 mainspring:


size comparisons:
Savage & North
Whitney .36 (original)
Colt 3rd Generation 1861 .36 Navy
Ruger Old Army .44