Odd reloading occurance

[1886]

I was at the range this A.M. doing some load development with the .358 Win. I discharged several rounds with no problem then something happened that I had never experienced nor seen. I pulled the trigger and no bang. No biggie this has happened in the past. I waited about 30 seconds and tried again but still no bang. O.K. I thought bum primer so ejected the round after waiting about one minute. Well powder spilled into the action and the bullet was firmly lodged in the throat. It seems that the primer did detonate with enough force to lodge the projectile firmly into the rifling but no powder burn.???? The powder is fresh as it is new and I have loaded and fired about 3 dozen rounds without incident. This is a head scratcher unless the primer did not detonate but the force of the striker was enough to lodge the bullet into the rifling.? I find this hard to imagine as neck tension is very good and the bullet was seated deeply enough in the case neck. This is one for Mic. Anyone else experienced such an event? 1886.

[TedH]

Could the inside of the case have been contaminated/damp when you loaded? I've heard of some strange things causing weird problems like this, like a bug crawling into an empty case left on the bench overnight, then filled with powder. Wonder if a weak primer could generate enough pressure to push the bullet out and not ignite the powder? I wouldn't think so. Can you tell if the powder looked any different than some still in the can? What powder were you using?

[Hobie]

I've had this happen, once. Based on a thorough step-by-step review of the processing of that brass I concluded that it was most likely that that one piece had somehow gotten contaminated with water. Although I checked them all as I loaded them the brass had been carried through both a rainstorm (protected and polished AFTER that step) and I had sneezed once during the process. I felt that an odd drop of snot had gotten in the case and I just hadn't seen it. I changed my sneeze prep (yeah, go ahead and laugh) after that to more fully protect the bucket of primed brass.

[Buffboy]

You haven't said what bullet weight or powder you were using. I've had this happen with slow powders and light bullets in pistol calibers(454). The light bullet and the lack of neck tension were the culprits in my situation. How accurate/ consistent were the previous two rounds?

Ted's idea is plausible too. There also could have been a block of the primer flame by a piece of cleaning media in the flash hole. The pressure would still get through(to move the bullet) but not enough flame to ignite the powder.

edit: The bullets weren't set out to touch the rifling were they? I've seen short throats that pull a bullet if it's not crimped. Even when the primer didn't pop at all. Was it a bolt action rifle?
edit pt2. nevermind the last one I reread your post

[1886]

The load was 47grs of H4895 with a Sierra 225gr BTSP ignited by BR-2 primers all wrapped up in new, untouched W/W brass. No cleaning media, no contamination known as I brewed these loads up this A.M. Round were loaded .015 off the lands. If the primer demonstrated enough brisance to move the bullet .020 into the rifling, assuming the primer detonated, then surely there was enough flame to ignite the powder. Only thing I can come up with is the striker force moved that bullet but this seems so unlikely. First several shots were very consistent at 2222-2228 fps. 1886.

[O.S.O.K.]

A primer detonation will usually push the bullet well into the bore - not just jammed into the rifling.

I'm thinking that the primer may have indeed detonated but at reduced level that failed to ignite the powder and only caused the bullet to dislodge from the case...

[3t-]

1886,

Are your bullet seated to engage the rifling when chambered. Could be the primer was a dud, the powder did not ignite, chambering the round seated it in the rifling en ought to overcome the neck tension on the round and pulled the bullet.

Can you recreate this "bullet pulling" by cycling live rounds through the chamber without firing, basically eject the live rounds unfired and see if the bullets have moved out of crimp.

Just a thought

[1886]

Projectiles were loaded .015 off the lands. I said this is a head scratcher. Something was obviously a miss, but what? 1886.

[Hobie]

I must still be asleep. Buffboy reminded me that I had this happen with a load of 24 gr. H4198 in my .45-70. What a pain! I was told that magnum primers would resolve that problem.

[TedH]

Did you remove the primer from the suspect case? You should be able to tell if it burned or not just by looking at it's color. Also, you said it was new brass. Are you sure that the flash hole was punched all the way through full diameter with no blockage?

[1886]

Yes Ted, that is the obvious way to proceed. In fact on my way back to the range I could have kicked my self for missing the obvious. I did pull the primer and there was zero evidence of burning. No blackening of the primer cup, primer pocket or inside the case. It seems pretty clear that the primer was a complete dud and the bullet was moved by the energy of the striker alone. I guess this solves the mystery. 1886.

[JohndeFresno]

I've had this happen, once. Based on a thorough step-by-step review of the processing of that brass I concluded that it was most likely that that one piece had somehow gotten contaminated with water. Although I checked them all as I loaded them the brass had been carried through both a rainstorm (protected and polished AFTER that step) and I had sneezed once during the process. I felt that an odd drop of snot had gotten in the case and I just hadn't seen it. I changed my sneeze prep (yeah, go ahead and laugh) after that to more fully protect the bucket of primed brass.

eeeewwwwwww!

[Hobie]

I've had this happen, once. Based on a thorough step-by-step review of the processing of that brass I concluded that it was most likely that that one piece had somehow gotten contaminated with water. Although I checked them all as I loaded them the brass had been carried through both a rainstorm (protected and polished AFTER that step) and I had sneezed once during the process. I felt that an odd drop of snot had gotten in the case and I just hadn't seen it. I changed my sneeze prep (yeah, go ahead and laugh) after that to more fully protect the bucket of primed brass.

eeeewwwwwww!

Snot nice, is it?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Snot nice, is it?

Brutal.

[Charles]

The force of the primer starts the bullet in motion and then the "big push" (as Phil Sharpe calls it) from the ignited powder takes over and finishes tghe work.

So, what you experienced sound perfectly normal, except your powder did not ignite and there was no big push to finish the job.

So, in my mind, the only question is why didn't the powder ignite? I can only speculate without the goods in my hand. So, I will just shut up!

[jnyork]

I've had this happen, once. Based on a thorough step-by-step review of the processing of that brass I concluded that it was most likely that that one piece had somehow gotten contaminated with water. Although I checked them all as I loaded them the brass had been carried through both a rainstorm (protected and polished AFTER that step) and I had sneezed once during the process. I felt that an odd drop of snot had gotten in the case and I just hadn't seen it. I changed my sneeze prep (yeah, go ahead and laugh) after that to more fully protect the bucket of primed brass.

Wish I hadn't read that before supper!!

[RSY]

Like OSOK, I think it could have been the primer, in that it didn't get a full helping of slurry, or maybe a misplaced anvil that blocked the flash-hole. It's all conjecture at this point, I guess. Unless you de-prime it and find no anvil, at all.

Scott

[kimwcook]

1886, I also find it hard to imagine there was enough force from the firing pin strike to the primer to throw the bullet that far. I guess that would depend on how strong your hammer spring is. I've had bad primers before, but never have I had a bullet jump from the primer strike alone.

[AJMD429]

I wonder if you could tell if the primer went off...

a) try 'firing' it again (bangs now means didn't go off)

b) if no bang now, remove it and see if there is burn marks in it with a hand lens (I assume spent primers look different than new ones - try a primed-case (no powder) and shoot that one and see if yours looks more like it or more like a new one.

[deth502]

1886, I also find it hard to imagine there was enough force from the firing pin strike to the primer to throw the bullet that far. I guess that would depend on how strong your hammer spring is. I've had bad primers before, but never have I had a bullet jump from the primer strike alone.

+1

ive seen this happen before a few times on others' reloads, but i didnt know the background on them. a few thimes, the powder inside was found to be clumped together, which would be a sure sign of water afai see it.

if it turns out to be a partialy blocked primer hole, youll prob never know it, as all of the evidence will prob be destroyed during decaping.

[TedH]

You guys aren't reading this close enough.

The original poster, 1886 "I did pull the primer and there was zero evidence of burning. No blackening of the primer cup, primer pocket or inside the case."

[Griff]

Now this is worth exactly what you paid for it. And if told to shut up and mind my own beeswax, I'll slink off into the dark of night and consider myself sufficiently chastised for the next... oh... 30 seconds. Mind you, I mean none of the following in a critical manner, but am repeating what a for more experienced reloader and competitor in several disciplines related to me, more than just a few minutes ago. And, even it it's not cause in your case, maybe it will help some newer reloader NOT to have a problem as perplexing as this one.

1. NEVER reload virgin brass. Here's why: Brass as shipped from just about any manufacturer is going to vary greatly from one piece to the next. Now, it may be within a few thousandths of an inch with its neighbor in the box/bag/bin... or it may knock on the door of being out of spec. What that means to us, the average reloader, is that if we take a random piece of brass from a lot, set up our reloading dies based on that random sampling, we might, just might, have located the one piece of brass in the lot that exactly meets spec, or not. Now, in our reloading procedures, we run say 50 rounds thru each step as a batch. Prime, charge, seat. And we attempt to use the same point of reference in how deep we seat the primers, exactly how much powder we load, and how deeply the bullets are seated. So, lets say we're using virgin brass, have set the dies to seat the bullets .015" off the lands... and now we come to a case that's .020" longer than the case we used to set up our dies. It's very likely that one can encounter that much variance in any given lot of brass. While were in the thoes of finishing the last few cases so we have 100 rounds to shoot over the weekend, we come to one that, in our haste to complete the task, we don't notice the ram didn't travel quite so far as the ones before it, or even after it. We are, after all, likely to miss the feel of a couple of thousandths difference. Now we're at the range, have fired a few rounds and are generally satisfied (or not), with the accuracy we're getting in the way of feedback in the targets. Our barrel is hot, and the next round has a couple of conditions that we're totally unaware of: it has that rare "dud" primer; AND, this piece of brass is one of maybe 15 or 20 out of a hundred that's longer than our randomly picked sample used for setting the dies. Maybe we've already fired 8 of its brothers, but... the barrel was cooler, or...? But, this one... the slacker that it is, is the only one that just can't seem to find the impetus to set off the powder and send that bullet that has found it's way into the lands, farther down the barrel and winging it's way to the target.

2. ALWAYS size and trim virgin brass. It is the ONLY way to ensure that your loaded cartridges will be of equal length. And even with that, you should always measure finished rounds to ensure proper cycling thru your action, or proper fit in your chamber. Believe me, I've failed to do that a time or two, and only when its inconvenient, will I find that the 200 rounds I loaded in haste last night won't feed thru my '73 the next morning when I'm 100 miles away from my reloading bench and any spare ammo at the match... or even worse, ½ way thru the match and I've got a good game going! (In my case, it was disassembling the seater die to clean it of excess lube and when reassembled and set, I allowed myself to "OK" the seating in the ramp of the crimp groove; all the way down into the groove. Which is where that bullet is required to be seated in order to feed thru my '73 Uberti.

I do actually believe in coincidences, yep, that one dud primer out of the thousand you bought in the brick, found its way into the one extra long piece of brass and in conjunction with a warmed up barrel you had a bullet engaging the rifling. When you determined you had a dud primer, you pulled back the bolt, pulling the bullet and dumping the powder. I don't believe that the firing pin force was enough to move the bullet, either thru movement of the whole case (in which case you have a headspace problem of monumental proportions), or thru movement of the primer cup providing a miniscule amount of compressed air inside the case, then thru the buffering effect the powder therein would have, pushing the bullet out of the case and sticking it in the rifling.

Now, all that said, that's predicated on my understanding of "virgin" brass.

[1886]

I should have been more clear when I stated I used untouched brass. By untouched brass I meant uncontaminated by by size lube or cleaning media. All brass was sized on an RCBS full length sizer with the expander button polished down to .354. Further all brass was trimmed to a uniform length of 2.095". Hope this clears thing up just a bit. Still left with the conclusion that striker energy alone moved that bullet. Regards. 1886.

[kimwcook]

Well it's an easy enough test to reproduce. Just use some media other than gunpowder, load to approximately the same as your powder load and put in a killed primer. Smack that sucker again and see if it launches the bullet into the rifling again. If it doesn't launch the bullet into the rifling and reproduce the result you had, make another dud round with a good primer and see if it will. A couple minutes of playing around with it should provide you your answer.