Some Barnes info

[El Chivo]

I got a little more info on Barnes bullets that might interest you guys.

The XPB pistol bullet (.357 140 gr) opens up at 900 fps. BC is .150, SD is .157.

The 30-30 TSX 150 opens up at 1400 fps. BC .184 and SD .226.

The .358 200 opens up at 1800 fps. BC .284 and SD .223.

Ty at Barnes mentioned the first one in an e-mail, I asked him for the others. I'm working on a load for the 30-30, right now the muzzle velocity is at 2100 fps. So if I know the velocity at which the bullet opens up, I could find the max range for that velocity.

This is encouraging because he told me the 35 Rem can't shoot the 200 grainer fast enough to open up. Looks like it could for a 50-yard shot. Since for me it's a defense round, that would be fine.

Another surprise is the idea of using the XPB pistol bullet in the 35 Rem for hunting. It might outdistance the 30-30 bullet because it only has to be going 900 fps to open up, that may give it some extra yardage over the 30-30. It would be easy to get it going super fast, as well.

I'll have to get out the ballistics programs and see what I can find out.

[JohndeFresno]

Thanks! Since I live in the Iron Triangle, I am looking for these types of hunting loads. I'll definitely plug the numbers into my trajectory programs!

[El Chivo]

Ok, plugged this stuff in to the program:

The 30-30 load is only good for 175 yards. After that the velocity drops below 1400 and it won't expand.

The 35 Rem 200 grain will work for defense if I can get the muzzle velocity up to 1950. It's only good for 50 yards. After that, it's below 1800 and won't expand. But it would still hurt.

A 35 Rem 140 grain might be the best hunting choice, if it turns out to be accurate. Assuming I can get 2200 at the muzzle, it will be the deadliest mushroom in the woods for 425 yards. It's only going a little over 900 fps at that point but it will still expand.

I have heard bad things about light bullets losing their energy and velocity, and it's still happening, but the quirk of the XPB's expanding at a lower velocity makes it a moot point, I'm thinking.

I'm disappointed in the 30-30 figure, I realize 175 yards covers most hunting situations but I might need that long shot. And to think I bought a 30-30 just for this.

Got to get some of those 140 grain XPB.

[Terry Murbach]

I AM QUITE AMAZED AT HOW PUNY THE BC'S ARE ON THOSE BULLETS.

IT IS MY UNVARNISHED OPINION YOU ARE LOOKING AT THIS ALL WRONG AND HAVE NOT GIVEN DUE THOUGHT TO THE FACT THE NUMBERS ON ALL THE CARTRIDGES YOU NAME HAVE BEEN SORTED OUT AND PERFECTED DECADES AGO. YOU CANNOT ADD ANYTHING TO THEM BY USING ODDBALL BULLETS AND THINKING THAT THEIR MINUMUM VELOCITY FOR EXPANSION IS YOUR " MAXIMUM " RANGE FOR THAT BULLET. NOT HARDLY !!!

[Andrew]

Terry, he is just trying to make due with what he has. They are non-lead bullets that expand at a particular speed, so, it would behoove one to make sure that the velocity is up to snuff at the distances he is going to be shooting so that the bullet can be expected to perform as designed. He's not trying to improve anything, just trying to "make lemonade out of lemons". JMHO.

[JohndeFresno]

Terry, he is just trying to make due with what he has. They are non-lead bullets that expand at a particular speed, so, it would behoove one to make sure that the velocity is up to snuff at the distances he is going to be shooting so that the bullet can be expected to perform as designed. He's not trying to improve anything, just trying to "make lemonade out of lemons". JMHO.

Yup. The "oddball" part of the equation is the large part of our current population (mainly urbanites who have never even fired a gun) who are doing everything that they can to restrict our ammunition and our means to use it.

[El Chivo]

Terry, this is a California thing, the last thing I wanted to do this summer was work on loads for copper bullets and sight in all over again. But I have to get ready for condor season. In fact, I can't even go scouting with a gun until I come up with a copper load.

[mackcook]

conley percision, and cor-bon both use the barnes bullet @ 2300 fps on 30/30.
it is very effective.

[Modoc ED]

If you're going to use the Barnes TSX FN 150gr copper bullet and load it to any of the handloads in their (Barnes') reloading manual, you should get good results out to at least 200 yards -- I think much further.

I believe Terry is more right than wrong when he says in a general way that this has been sorted out decades ago.

One of the loads Barnes lists for their 150gr TSX FN for the .30-30 is:

Minimum load: IMR 3031 28gr for 1893 fps
Maximum load: IMR 3031 30.5gr for 2066 fps

Pretty standard fare. Just a hair under what I load my .30-30 rounds to now.

"sobenk" -- Why not pick out a hanload for the .30-30 in Barnes' reloading manual (perhaps with a recommended powder listed that you have experience with) using Barnes copper bullets of course and taking them scouting with you and doing a little testing while scouting?

Sometimes we make a mountain out of a mole hill when taking on new adventures. Get Barnes' reloading manual and get comfortable with it.

[Griff]

I believe what Terry was trying to say w/o actually saying it was: your 900fps for expansion @ 425yds. also translates into much greater potential for fragmentation @ velocities higher than 900fps, or in your suggested usage, anything closer than 425yds. Your BEST choice (IMO), is the .30-30.

[El Chivo]

For 30-30, I'm going right from the Barnes Manual, my powder is H4895, 31 grains should give me about 2100 fps at the muzzle. That was the most accurate of the choices I tried.

The info that I got from Barnes was there's a specific velocity below which the bullet won't expand (1400 fps). And, beyond 175 yards the bullet will be going slower than that. It just makes sense to prepare for that.

I did read in their FAQ that the pistol bullets do hold together, some people are using them in their 444 Marlins.

I don't see what kind of testing I can do, the question is performance on game, not trajectory. This year I will be going with the 30-30 because I'm running out of time for working on loads. But with this info I do have extra motivation to try and push the velocity a little.

[Marc]

I bought a box of the 150 FN TSX's but haven't loaded any yet. Interesting to see the minimum velocity needed. I didn't know that. Actually, I wouldn't be to worried about the difference between 175 and 200 yards. There is always a range limit and you have to live with it regardless of whether it is 175 yards or 400 yards. Time is getting short now for me to develop a load since A zone opens in three weeks so the bullets will probably wait til next year to go hunting.

I looked at 44 XPB bullets for my "new" old 44 WCF Winchester 73. I don't know if it is a good idea to shoot those in a 1916 rifle but I think I could get away with shooting a few through it. I have sure had a lot of fun shooting that rifle with cast bullets and I would really like to kill a deer with it. Barnes has two 200 grain 44 XPB's. One is for the 44 Special and the other is for the 44 Mag. The obvious difference between the two is the location of the crimp groove. The 44 Special bullet has the crimp groove further back so it would make a loaded round to long for the 73. The 44 mag bullet has the crimp groove in the right place but then I expect you would need 44 mag velocities to make it work. I think I will call Barnes and see what they say. Max range for the 44 WCF would be 100 yards or less. I would happily accept that limit for the thrill of killing a deer with the old rifle!

Are you hunting A zone this year?

[Modoc ED]

Here's a drop chart that may be useful to some of you wanting to use copper bullets in the .30-30. The bullet used for the drop test in the chart was the Barnes 150gr TSX FN pure copper bullet.

[Marc]

Ed, that B.C. is way to high. Barnes says it is .184.

[Modoc ED]

Ed, that B.C. is way to high. Barnes says it is .184.

Can't really say. That is the drop chart Cor-Bon publishes for their factory loaded .30-30 ammo using the Barnes 150gr TSX FP bullets.

[Old Savage]

That is a spitzer BC.

[El Chivo]

Also I'd be hard put to get 2300 at the muzzle. I'm going to try two more half grain increases (I'm at 31.0 H4895 now) and see if they hold a group. But where I'm at now the muzzle velocity is listed at 2114 in the Barnes manual. And I'll be using a 20 inch barrel, so it may be less.

The BC may be low because the bullet is basically a hollow point.

Name: .308 Cal, Barnes Copper FN, 150 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.184
Bullet Weight: 150
Velocity: 2114

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range ______ Velocity
0 yds ______ 2114 fps
25 yds ______ 2012 fps
50 yds ______ 1912 fps
75 yds ______ 1817 fps
100 yds ______ 1725 fps
125 yds ______ 1637 fps
150 yds ______ 1552 fps
175 yds ______ 1471 fps
200 yds ______ 1395 fps



Marc, yes I sent for an A-zone tag, and should have a week's vacation during the season to get out there. Also Labor Day weekend I might hunt.

I didn't know about the min impact velocity for opening, either, but stumbled over it after e-mailing Barnes. They don't mention it in their website or their load data. It must have something to do with how they craft the tip and the petals.

That's why I put up this thread, for Californians, and others who want to use the bullets, ignorance is not bliss!

[Modoc ED]

Marc, yes I sent for an A-zone tag, and should have a week's vacation during the season to get out there. Also Labor Day weekend I might hunt.

That's why I put up this thread, for Californians, and others who want to use the bullets, ignorance is not bliss!

I drew a X-1 Zone deer tag. The opening day for that zone is the first Saturday in October. I'll be hunting with my .444 Marlin this year and I'll be taking one of my .30-30s too.

[scr83jp]

Terry, this is a California thing, the last thing I wanted to do this summer was work on loads for copper bullets and sight in all over again. But I have to get ready for condor season. In fact, I can't even go scouting with a gun until I come up with a copper load.

Have you read WON 7/18/08 issue SOUND OFF in READERS RESPONSE about the 6/28/08 non-lead ammo clinic at Laguna Seca Rifle Range the shooter said the non-lead 223 ammo was pathetic ,he could only get a group of 4+ inches with the supplied ammo,he fired his handloads with copper jacketed lead & covered his 100yd shots with a quarter.I have Barnes 250gr TSX Flatnose .458 for my 45-70 asked a hodgdon tech for H335 load data & was told to use 300gr data start at 61gr & work up to max at 68gr but haven't loaded any as yet.I have encores in 454casull , a 15" pistol barrel & a bullberry 20" rifle barrel in SW460mag,midwayusa has magtech 225gr copper bullets in diameter.452 approx $83 for 100 may have to get some.I called magtech but they have no load data for these all copper bullets.

[Marc]

Sobenk, do you have an area picked out in A zone? I normally hunt the back country but there is plenty of country near the roads to hunt here. A lot of it burned last year and I don't know what's left. I will find out more when I talk to the archery hunters. Let me know when you are going out. I am free during the week. Maybe we can hook up. The wife and I usually head to the back country on Labor day. The fire burned right to our hunting grounds so we don't know what that will be like. None of my buddies in the gun club even got an A tag this year. With the price of gas there will hopefully be less hunting pressure here locally because many hunters come from LA and further.

A friend of mine has hunted X-1 and he killed a very nice buck there a few years ago. I understand it is good country!

I have been using Barnes X-bullets since about 1996. They shoot just fine in my 264 WM. It will put the first three under an inch at 100 . Five will open the group to 1-1/4" as the barrel heats. I don't buy any of the myths and legends about how they don't work. I have a pile of deer antlers in the back yard that proves they do work. Dead deer don't lie!