POLITICS - historic perspective

[donw]

if it were possible to resurrect marines from iwo jima and tarawa, soldiers from normandy and sicily, airmen from all over europe and sailors from midway and the USS Arizona...i wonder what they would think of the United States they fought and died for in it's current condition...i wonder if they would think it was worth their sacrifice.

[Charles]

Not a valid issue as the dead won't have experienced or known anything of the changes that have taken place. Ask the question of surviving WWII vets and you will an answer with more validity. The dead are frozen in time, while human society and culture is fluid.

[mescalero1]

I agree with Charles, context is the issue.
Nothing is static, change is the ONLY constant.
Whether that change is good, bad or indifferent is a matter for historians.
Lay-people, in the process of change; are not so much aware as they are just surviving in thier enviornment.

[gamekeeper]

if it were possible to resurrect marines from iwo jima and tarawa, soldiers from normandy and sicily, airmen from all over europe and sailors from midway and the USS Arizona...i wonder what they would think of the United States they fought and died for in it's current condition...i wonder if they would think it was worth their sacrifice.

"IF" it were possible a lot of those who gave their lives would not recognise the world we now live in but I think a lot of those men and women would still make that sacrifice today because that was the type of folks they were!

[505stevec]

The survivors of WW II are the ones who brought us Social everything. out of their loins were birthed the free love folks. We are here because they figured the battle was over. Someone once said "I have seen the enemy... and he is us" NOw most of the WW II generation will be voting for Obama because they too want what he government will hand out.

[Charles]

505Stevec... Over the years I have seen plenty of unmitigated absurd foolishness posted on this board, but your post has taken that type of post to a whole new level, which I doubt will ever be surpassed.

[Ysabel Kid]

My Uncle (my Dad's brother) was with the 29ID and landed at Omaha beach on D-Day. Fought through the rest of the war through V-E Day. He raised patriotic children, who have done the same - such as the rest of the family. I'm sure he'd say it was worth it from that perspective. Looking at the mess we have become as a society though, I'm sure he and his generation have their doubts. True - they gave so much and wanted peace so much that they birthed the 60's generation. They voted in numbskulls who have tried to socialize this country more and more with every generation. We have become soft and unwilling to tolerate loss, long wars, or hard fights. But in the end, many many unsung patriots still love America, love freedom, and love our way of life. I'm sure they see what they fought for in a thousand small towns across the country - and it was worth it!

[Charles]

Ysabel.. Your post skipped over the Vietnam war which more than anyother event formed our attitudes today toward protacted war. Watergate is also a seminal event in forming the attitudes toward authority.

Prior to Vietnam, our experiences with overseas war was by means of newspapers, then radio, then news reels. These accounts of the wars were heavly sanitized and censored . During WW II there was no photos or news reels of American dead. These reports were often days and even weeks before the event.f

Vietnam brought the full horror of war into our livings rooms every night in full color. Lots of dead and wounded, show with lots of blood and violence. The war was very unpopular with many folks and the press reinforced that with nighly body count, blood and gore.

Now, add to this change in news gathering technology, the political nature of the war and the fact the whole thing was based on a false premise (The Dominoe Theory), and folks lost their stomach for war.

Now, stir into this cultural stew Watergate. I grew up in the days (40s and 50s), when the Policeman on the corner was your friend, J. Edgar Hoover was the embodyment of American virtue and POTUS had special knowledge not available to mere mortals, and his decisions were always correct, even if we could not understand them.

Vietnam, Watergate and other events of the times, showed out leaders, to be venal men, who often lied and broke the law when it suited their purposes. They could and would send our boys to kill and be killed for no good or noble purpose.

I do not believe that American people have grown soft. They have lost trust in their leaders and have grown unwilling to accept the words of venal politicians as a basis on which to expend their treasure and blood of their children. Count me among that number.

After 9-11, the country was unified against the common enemy, just as they were after Pearl Harbor. POTUS and other leaders have squandered that unity and determination on the ill conceived Iraq misadventure. The people having grown wiser and more cynical since WWII react as such.

In the end, it is grossly unfair to pronouce the Americans of today as softer or inferior to their parents and grandparents without understanding the events that shaped the difference in thinking. In the days of yore, there was a news reel short documentary program that was showin in motion picture theaters before the feature entitled "The March of Time". This short always ended the the narrator saying... "Time Marches on!"... and so it does.

[Old Ironsights]

if it were possible to resurrect marines from iwo jima and tarawa, soldiers from normandy and sicily, airmen from all over europe and sailors from midway and the USS Arizona...i wonder what they would think of the United States they fought and died for in it's current condition...i wonder if they would think it was worth their sacrifice.

I'll do you one better.

Bring back the Warrior Philosophers of the Revolution and they'd be fomenting another one within mere months... not becaue the people are perverted, but because what they created has been utterly turned inside out.

[donw]

OI...

i doubt it would take them months...weeks or days more likely...

[Charles]

You boys ought to hire yourselves out to be Mediums and charge big bucks for a seance as you are so accomplished at speaking for the dead.

[J Miller]

I do not have to resurrect the WWII vets from the dead. Until his death in 2000 my Uncle hated / despised / and loathed any and all democrats. He was wounded at the beginning of the US involvement in North Africa in the early 40s and was disabled. He worked for the IL state government for many years. He was and still is well known by many folks here in Springfield. And yet he hated and despised what he perceived the democrats had done to this country.
I think he was 95% right, he just forgot to include the republicans in his feelings.

Charles,
Your post, fourth up from mine, mirrors my life's experience, and my feelings about our governments little wars quite a bit. You worded it much better than I could.

Joe

[donw]

[AJMD429]

The survivors of WW II are the ones who brought us Social everything. out of their loins were birthed the free love folks. We are here because they figured the battle was over. Someone once said "I have seen the enemy... and he is us" NOw most of the WW II generation will be voting for Obama because they too want what he government will hand out.

Actually, although I think it is ALWAYS wrong to GENERALIZE*, the point is painful, but many times true.

All day long I see many who demand free state-of-the-art medical care, paid for (inefficiently through government-managed care) by our young work force, who sometimes work three jobs and take no time off for years, yet some of these folks (and before anyone gets their dander up, I said "SOME") barely were affected by the Great Depression, and during their working years, had time off to take long family vacations with their new boats and cars, built wonderful homes, paid for their kids to go to Ivy League colleges, and so on. All noble achievements, but in the "old" days, the mindset was work hard, save your money, and provide for your future. Too many of the "greatest generation" reveled in the post-war economy, but their unions ushered in socialism just in time for a retirement ride on the backs of the next generation, many of whom will not be able to enjoy nearly the same lifestyle, or even retire, until their health forces them to. And yes, many of them indicate they are eager for Obama to usher in more "change" - and get them even cheaper health care! If they'd not bought that new station wagon every three years, maybe they'd have enough money to pay for their own medicine now.

Sorry if I offended anyone in that age group, but I often wonder why today's 40 year olds are expected to sacrifice THEIR family vacations and THEIR kid's college funds, in order to kick in enough tax money to fund the retirement needs of the generation before them. I know it isn't any individual's fault, and our government basically deceived and manipulated the voters to get where we are today, but I'd have thought that individuals smart enough to invent 90% of what needed invented, and tough enough to survive the depression, and the 'big war' - would have been savvy enough to recognize and oppose socialism when they saw it right in our own nation.

*(I did try to make a funny just to lighten things up a little... )

[FWiedner]

I think that in the larger attempt to see a fair distribution of civil and equal rights, and in attempting to create a society that was quite the opposite of what they witnessed as they travelled to far flung lands, fighting and sacrificing for the future of human-kind, mistakes were made. The world is not a perfect place.

The children of those brave and tired souls were sheltered and did not understand the horrors that their fathers bore witness to, and blamed the wickedness of the world on them, and those men did not have the patience to explain. Now those children run the show, do not have an understanding of the evil that their fathers prevented, and are turning in that same wicked direction without a concern for the repercussions of their grand ignorance. They didn't learn anything from history, and have thereby conluded that since they didn't, it doesn't need to be taught.

Eventually, our nation will readjust. But right now we are at a crux, with another generation of warriors coming to understand the world as it really is, and the grandchildren of the greatest generation inheriting their parent's great ignorance of same.

[Idahoser]

Alright, I know I said no more politics, and really this isn't. It's to clear up a misconception some of you folks obviously have.

There will be nothing different, in any 'war' the US ever gets into for any reason with any enemy, as long as it's possible for Congress to avoid it's duty to declare "War". Since they've relieved themselves of the need to put their stamp on it, they will ALWAYS find it beneficial to be seen as "against" it. Can't be any other way.

You don't like it? Repeal the War Powers Act. There is no other way.

And while I'm ranting, there's a lot of things that will not be any other way. You don't want Socialist politicians? Get rid of public schools. Direct cause and effect, it can't turn out any different.

Want more and more leftist politicians? Accept the lesser evil. No other way it can go.

[AJMD429]

Alright, I know I said no more politics, and really this isn't. It's to clear up a misconception some of you folks obviously have.

There will be nothing different, in any 'war' the US ever gets into for any reason with any enemy, as long as it's possible for Congress to avoid it's duty to declare "War". Since they've relieved themselves of the need to put their stamp on it, they will ALWAYS find it beneficial to be seen as "against" it. Can't be any other way.

You don't like it? Repeal the War Powers Act. There is no other way.

And while I'm ranting, there's a lot of things that will not be any other way. You don't want Socialist politicians? Get rid of public schools. Direct cause and effect, it can't turn out any different.

Want more and more leftist politicians? Accept the lesser evil. No other way it can go.

+1

[GoatGuy]

Charles - your pompous response to steve505 was certainly out of place, though certainly not unlike you! His comments may not have been as "elegantly" worded as you would have liked, however those comments were echoed by others though in a much less direct manner. I note you failed to take them to task as you did steve505. Please allow others to speak their mind on this forum without posting your response in a haughty and caustic manner.

[El Chivo]

I think 505 has a point, although I think the returning vets were so busy participating in the booming postwar economy they neglected their children, who became spoiled, self-centered, etc.

However, a large percentage of the 60's generation went to Vietnam, didn't dodge the draft, and would go again if it were done right. Same with Generation X and Y in Iraq, people like that football player who died in Afghanistan.

The media got more powerful during this period and, with that power concentrated in the hands of a few leftists, created a lot of influence. I think that's waning but we're still in it.

There will always be a struggle between good and evil and I think the souls looking down on us are rooting for us to keep up the good fight.

I'm thinking today about the soldiers who fought at Gettysburg, in the movie the point is made that the American Civil War was the first war fought for an idea (good vs. evil) as opposed to territory or plunder.

[FWiedner]

I'm thinking today about the soldiers who fought at Gettysburg, in the movie the point is made that the American Civil War was the first war fought for an idea (good vs. evil) as opposed to territory or plunder.

I'm not criticizing your outlook, but it's my opinion that the idea of a "good" war is a school-yard fiction.

The civil war was fought for the same reasons as any other war, so that one group of men could control the lives, property, and production of an opposing faction of men. War is always about territory and resources. High-minded ideals are a deception to bilk the simple minded.

Any good that may be accomplished is incidental, or is perceived as good only because the winners write the history. Political education / reducation, as it were.

[Charles]

Goat... I calls em the way I sees em! Good lord man.. he thought he knew the mind of every WWII vet and thought they were of one lockstep mind. He attributes to them every bad things that happened since Japan surrendered. The WWII vets were as diverse in their opinions, actions and social views as any generation. He tared every one of them with the same brush and in doing so sladered many, many, many fine men who gave of themselves to deliver this great country to use free of facism. If ever there was a foolish statement, that was it. To lay every thing in the county he doesn't like at the feet of a whole generation of fighting mem, not only is foolish but slanderous as well. Life and social change cannot be explained with such simplistic, opaque, cartoonish thinking. The fact that others share, in whole or in part, in the same thinking doesn't render the premise valid and remove the stench of foolishness.

Now you can call that haughty, arrogant or whatever adjective you choose. I can live with that, but I can't live with such unmitigated foolishness laid out in plain view without challenge. The vets of WWII deserve better than what they received at the hands of the poster.