45Colt Trapper, back to The Range

[oldmax]

Shootin up some more reloads, W296(Correction) & 240Gr Sierra. 22.0 - 25.0 Grains - 7 rounds each...
50 YARDS:
results Not to conclusive, except, I NEED GLASSES

Groups were not very good, I'm sure it was operator error, The Last Group I tryed a
larger 'Orange' Bull and also using a Stock rest along with the forearm rest.
BIG Difference...I think the orange contrast helped with sight alienment and
the rear rest reduced the flyers .

But, Another problem, Loads getting Hotter, some case Bulging
I tryed to take a picture of same. There is NO extraction problems, and no sign of
to High pressure. So Keep shooting bulged cases ( Resized and inspected of course ) or discard them?
Is this normal for 45Colt . Is the chamber tapered on the W94/45Colt ?

2 Not to good groups:


Best Group: ( Last Group ) Large Orange Bull & 2 bag rest


Bulged case: Fuzzy Picture...
Case Dia: .475 above rim, bulge .485 Tapering to .477 at mouth.

[cnjarvis]

That bottom target doesn't look bad at all! 2"? Mine won't do much better than that.

My Trail's End in 45 Colt bulges cases like that and it's more noticable on higher pressure loads. So far I haven't noticed any problems and I've shot a number of heavy loads.

[Jay Bird]

What dia. bullet?(.452) My 92 likes .454 dia. Made a hugh difference in accuracy.(LEAD that is)

[Don McDowell]

Put a reciever sight or a one ragged hole sight on it. Groups will likely tighten up.
My trapper never did group worth a hoot with 4227.
Substitute some 5744 for the 4227 and things will likely tighten up.
Also 25 grs of 4198 will throw a magazine full of bullets thru the same hole at 50, and stay reasonably accurate to 250 yds.

[J Miller]

Both of my .45 Colt lever guns bulge the cases like yours does. So does my OM Ruger BH. The hotter the load, the more the bulge up to a point. I don't worry about it.

I agree with Don, put a receiver sight on it and you'll notice a big difference.

Joe

[kimwcook]

I've never ran a really hot load through my Marlin Cowboy. That may be the reason why I don't have any bulged cases.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I have 4 rifles in .45Colt and they all have large chambers. and my RCBS Carbide die seems extra tight to boot. I have yet to have a case fail. I am sure it will hapen sooner or later though.

[J Miller]

I have 4 rifles in .45Colt and they all have large chambers. and my RCBS Carbide die seems extra tight to boot. I have yet to have a case fail. I am sure it will hapen sooner or later though.

Chuck, I have RCBS, Lyman, and Lee .45 Colt carbide sizing dies. The RCBS is the tightest, almost too tight really. I use the Lyman most of all. But like you I've no trouble with full sizing my cases and shooting them from the generous chambers of the rifles and Ruger.

Joe

[oldmax]

1st: Bigggg ERROR: Not 4227, I'm using W296 ( corrected )
I'm loading for the 357Max also, Miss-Type

Not shooting lead, Bullet Dia .4515...

I tried a reciever sight ( prev Thread ) The barrel is rotated to the right, receiver sight at
full right still does not adjust for windage, that's why I went back to the barrel sight..
REF:http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=7152

I'm using a Lee 4 die set, Usually I just neck size for the revolver ( 357max) and some of
my rifle rounds, But with the bulge I thought it best to full length resize.. ????
Guess I just keep shooting ( I will inspect CLOSELY )
When/If they fail at the Bulge , What happens ? I have had neck cracks & splits ( revolver )
but never a seperation at the base....

As For powder, I'm trying to get a Hunting Load, with reasonable accuracy,
W296, I chose it for Velocity, I'm going to load a few more a little hotter and check results,
than maybe another Type will be in order, Thanks for the suggestions...

[txpete]

oldmax I just started reloading for the 357 max so any data you have would be a great help.
thanks
pete

[Don McDowell]

When you figured out the barrel was crooked, did you try drifting the front sight to get the windage corrected
Seems odd that the barrel sight will shoot ok for windage, but a receiver won't.

[J Miller]

When you figured out the barrel was crooked, did you try drifting the front sight to get the windage corrected
Seems odd that the barrel sight will shoot ok for windage, but a receiver won't.

Don,
I remembered oldmax's other thread now. The barrel on his rifle is indexed wrong. Both front and rear sights tilt to one side. It's all but impossible to put a receiver sight on it due to the amount of windage adjustment needed to bring the groups to center.

oldmax,
I'm still shooting cases that have been loaded with 30K CUP loads with no signs of case head failures. However after the second heavy load I don't load them that hot again. They get no more than level BLUE loads.

Joe

[oldmax]

per J Miller instructions,: Don't drift the front sight. NO GROVE, welded on....

The barrel is so thin that there is not enough material for the Grove.

With the rear sight on the barrel the sights align even if barrel rotated.
When rear sight is on the receiver, Big OFFSET...

txpete: I look for my data ,
Good starting point
http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

[deerwhacker444]

I've got a 94 in 44 mag that I purchased new in '05 the bulges cases.



I was just starting out reloading at the time and wasn't sure if it was my loads or the chamber in the rifle. Turns out it was the chamber. I still use the cases, they iron out when sizing for the most part.

[Don McDowell]

Is the barrel is not threaded in straight or did some idjut just "weld" the front sight on crooked?
Pictures of that would certainly be interesting.
The barrel on my 45 colt trapper is thin, but still has dovetail slots for both sights.

[Ben_Rumson]

Sounds like the barrel is screwed in too far.. Prolly needs shimming to get the sights indexed to be on top...

[oldmax]

Picture of Turned barrel, note rear sight vs scope holes
Which way does the barrel turn, looking from the rear.?

J.Miller, HELP, Explain how the Front Sight is installed....



Thin Barrel

[Don McDowell]

Looks to me like the front sight needs to be drifted a touch to the left (as seen in the picture) to be centered up over the top dead center of the bore, and who ever replaced the rear sight didn't center it up due to the front being off so far.

[oldmax]

Don , Thanks for the reply...
The rear sight is a dovetail. it can only go in 1 way. ( I replaced it )
( rear sight is aligned to front sight ) Front sight has slight bend to right also.
Gun shoots dead on for windage, Actually the gun is starting to shoot quit well.
I never see the rotated barrel when firing it...

There is no dovetail on front sight.
J.Miller cautioned me on trying to bend the front sight, He says it is Brittle and will snap,
I have checked belo the front sight, I can not see any outline of a dovetail...
I checked the barrel vs reciever with a level . When the receiver is level the 'flat' on
the rear sight is about 5 degrees to the right. Barrel rotated to the right.

A reciever sight will not work, Pictures in link below
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=7152

[JRR]

The 45 Colt is interesting in that it is a TAPERED case. Carbide dies cannot size tapered but only straight. The difference between the mouth size and the base is approx. .004" but it make a difference. RCBS produces a "steel", non-carbide sizing die for the 45 Colt that solves the loose case issue. Of course, the cases must be lubed prior to sizing just like a rifle case. Using this die will reduce the differential between the sized and fired diameters, making a much better fit in the chamber as well as holding the bullet with proper tension.

Some brass case manufactures actually make their 45 Colt cases straight knowing that carbide dies will be used. Starline is one of these. I buy new Starline cases, load and fire them and then go to the tapered RCBS sizing die.

With full house 30 thous. psi loads in a Win. 94, I am on my 8th loading with no sign of damage or failure of the brass.

I usually shoot 285 gr. Applegate mold GC bullets as well as Mt. Mould GC 285s with 1" groups at 55 yards. Adj. peep sight of course.

[J Miller]

Don,

The front sight on oldmax's Trapper is welded, soldered, or sweated directly to the barrel. It is not dovetailed. It is a cast part, looking at it closely exposes a very coarse porous type of metal. The original front sight on my 94AE Trapper snapped off when it got bumped. The factory put a new barrel on it to replace the sight.

Oldmax,
Buy that picture, that barrel is so crooked you need to ship that bad boy back to the factory for repair. Were it mine I would not put up with that any longer than the first range session. If that long. That thing is WAY out of plumb.

JRR,
The .45 Colt cartridge case is not tapered. The chamber is.

If Starline and others are making the brass straight it's because they are making it to SAAMI specs, not because they think someone will use a carbide die.


Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

OK, I have some experience with the 45 Colt, this rifle and accuracy. It also applies to the Ruger Blackhawk in my experience.

When you go to reload the cases, only run the sizer down to point where the bottom of the bullet will be seated. In other words, "neck size" your cases. That's right - I know this is a "straight cased" pistol cartridge, but this is a boon to accuracy.

Also, stick with your W296 - or H110, use magnum primers and go with a 300 grain bullet. The Hornady XTP is excellent for accuracy and also for terminal performance on game.

The combination of these two things will tighten your groups. I no longer have my old trapper but I was able to get 2" groups at 100 yards with these techniques - and a scope installed BTW.

A good aperture sight will help you out a lot too. Especially if the rear sight is really "fuzzy" to the point you can't align the sights consistently.

[oldmax]

And Thanks to you'all, The education continues....

I neck size for the 357max and 41 Mag.
I have been full length resizing for the Winchester thinking
that it would be needed for extraction, I thought that if I
neck sized , it might cause a problem. I will try neck
the next batch....

I did load some 300 grain , but the drop at 100 yards was quite severe.
I will try again with a heaver load. O.S.O.K
Can you give me a hint on charge level for W296..
" Realguns " Lists W296 as MAX 23.0 grains & H110 at 24.0
Does that sound reasonable,
( NOTE: I ALWAYS WORK UP SLOWLY )

J.Miller Thanks again: That one picture does look bad....
I would like to get the barrel tweeked, I don't know if the factory would do it as warrenty work...
and hard to find a good gunsmith in florida,, Usually I just get them to shot and go hunting.
But maybe I will get this one fixed correctly. As far as i can tell the barrel is off about 5
Degrees from the reciever ( level method )

JRR Interesting on taper case , I will look into the dies and brass issue.
Is the chamber Tapered? Also, I have been using Winchester brass.
Is Starline any stronger?

I asked the somewhere before, Would cutting down 454 Casull be an option,
I relieze that the capacity is smaller, and I would have to load up slowly...

Thanks again to all of you, This is getting to be a very challenging project......

[BenT]

That barrel needs to be indexed in more . It should be no problem for a gunsmith with a lathe to shave off the excess for headspacing and cut a new extractor groove. Or send it back to Winchester.

[J Miller]

And Thanks to you'all, The education continues....

I neck size for the 357max and 41 Mag.
I have been full length resizing for the Winchester thinking
that it would be needed for extraction, I thought that if I
neck sized , it might cause a problem. I will try neck
the next batch....
Everyones guns, tools, components and techniques are different. I've tried partial sizing of the .45 Colt cases and found it did not size the cases concentric to bore or shell holder. Cases do not always expand equally, and when you partially size them there is a good chance the sized part will not be in line with the bore. So I full size all my straight wall cases, and I get very good accuracy. Others obviously have different results, you might too. The .45 Colt needs no help with extraction as far as the cases go. If you have problems there it's most likely due to a worn, bent, or defective extractor.

I did load some 300 grain , but the drop at 100 yards was quite severe.
I will try again with a heaver load. O.S.O.K
Can you give me a hint on charge level for W296..
" Realguns " Lists W296 as MAX 23.0 grains & H110 at 24.0
Does that sound reasonable,
( NOTE: I ALWAYS WORK UP SLOWLY )

J.Miller Thanks again: That one picture does look bad....
I would like to get the barrel tweeked, I don't know if the factory would do it as warrenty work...
and hard to find a good gunsmith in florida,, Usually I just get them to shot and go hunting.
But maybe I will get this one fixed correctly. As far as i can tell the barrel is off about 5
Degrees from the reciever ( level method )
5° off plum is a great deal off. It IS a factory defect and should be fixed by them for free. I would definatly check it out with Browning/Winchester. If they get pissy and won't do it, then I'd send it to our own Nate Kiowa Jones.

JRR Interesting on taper case , I will look into the dies and brass issue.
Is the chamber Tapered? Also, I have been using Winchester brass.
Is Starline any stronger?
Not JRR, but did you look at the schematic I posted? The .45 Colt cartridge cases are not tapered by intent. I'm sure there might be some done by defect, but the specs for them are .480" all the way, head to mouth. The chamber IS tapered. Winchester brass is good, I've never had any trouble with it. Starline is good, it is also thicker, kind of like the Federal brass.

I asked the somewhere before, Would cutting down 454 Casull be an option,
I relieze that the capacity is smaller, and I would have to load up slowly...

Thanks again to all of you, This is getting to be a very challenging project......
Don't mean to be a stinker and harp on the sights, but before you waste any more time and money on that gun, get the barrel reindexed. You'll be really glad you did. Those sights are a hindrance to accuracy.

Joe

[JRR]

I suspect that the .006" difference between the chamber and the case at the base is the root of the 45 Colt weak case myth, along with the old balloon type cases. I wonder why the chamber and case dimensions would be so loose other than to provide easier chambering and extraction (glock chamber).

Neck sizing only will accomplish the same goal as using the RCBS tapered sizing die.

I get better centered rounds with improved accuracy plus longer case life using full power loads.

It might be interesting to know if a neck sized or taper sized round will fit in a Freedom Arms revolver or the 5 round customs.

[J Miller]

JRR,

You are right about the old Balloon head cases. Those can be problematic. They were OK with black powder and smokeless powder loads of that pressure range, but much higher and they expand far more than a modern case.

For some reason, SAAMI and the gun manufactures have treated the .45 Colt like a bastard step child. They have the specs loose as goose and usually keep the chambers at the max end of them. There really isn't any legitimate reason for this. I've got .45 Colt ammo from recent to pre 1900s and have measured the case diameter on many of them. They are so consistent it's amazing. The ammo specs haven't changed, yet the guns specs are all over the spectrum.
This caliber is capable of much more, and could deliver it if the gun makers would just tighten up their tolerances a bit.

I've never seen an RCBS "tapered sizing die". I've got a standard steel die. Nothing special about that other than it doesn't size the case down as much as the carbide dies. I guess it kind of looks tapered when it comes out of the sizer.
Is this what you are referring to? Or do you have an actual die that's intensionally tapered? I'm not being picky, I'm just curious.

Joe

[JRR]

Some years ago, one of the gun writers doing high end 45 Colt loadings had RCBS make a custom steel die for him. RCBS has since made it standard. This was done to provide more case neck tension and to keep the base a bit larger for a better chamber fit.