Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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JNG
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Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by JNG »

Doc, your opinion on mask wearing. Now that they can force people to wear the mask, will they be doing the same during the flu season?
By the way, our Sheriff just stated his officers will not go after non-mask wears. States that the S.O. have more pressing issues to attend to.

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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by JNG »

I guess i'm the only one on this forum that is worried.
O'well every person has his or hers thoughts on this subject. That's fine.
Have a great day.

Joe
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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Mandatory mask orders = obedience training

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Post by Blaine »

Washington State's AG will now charge a business that waits on unmasked customers.... Seig Heil, Sideshow Bob Ferguson. :evil:
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by OldWin »

Masks are totalitarianism at it's finest.

The numbers of conforming virtue signaling sheep make me sick.

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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by gamekeeper »

Well I wear a bandana when visiting the bank ..... cause I've always wanted to :lol: but I agree with you guys mask's as I understand it are not that effective, so being criminalised for not wearing one is ridiculous.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by Pisgah »

I don't like rules any more than the average guy. I have had people for years try to convince me that wearing a seatbelt when driving or wearing a helmet when motorcycle riding are more dangerous than not using them, and that texting while driving is perfectly okay. You know what? I disagree, and I faithfully wear the belt and the helmet and ignore the phone -- simply because pure common sense tells me it's the safe thing to do.

Same with facemasks right now. Maybe they don't give any protection. But the three people I know who have died from the virus so far all refused to wear them, and I'm not going to follow their example if I can help it.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by GunnyMack »

What I dont get is having to wear a mask outside in your own yard! Our moron in charge at the governors mansion is now saying you must eat outside at your own home !! ( I heard this 3rd hand, so a grain of salt...)
I do believe people are going to start to go against orders and do what they want.
Certainly if you are immune compromised , in a densely populated area or just a hypochondriac then by all means follow the guidelines. I'm NOT wearing a mask in my own car,house,yard.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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This is not directed at anyone, only to keep the discussion going...

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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by AJMD429 »

Here's what we have on our bulletin board in the office, after hearing on the news that a woman in her business, ALONE, was photographed through her front store window without a mask on, and now faces fines and threats of business closure:

Starting July 9th, We Will Wear Masks, Because:

> Mayor Holcomb is finding and fining businesses and individuals who don't.
> Wearing Masks is a harmless way to provide symbolic reassurance to some people.

Without being a part of head-to-toe gear and protocol, masks have little benefit, and currently the WHO and CDC can't even agree whether Coronavirus-19 is spread by aerosol, droplet, or contact, nor on what precautions work. Several studies have shown that masks range from 'possibly' or 'minimally' effective, all the way to 'potentially worse than nothing'. Masks have become more of a way to virtue-signal than anything else. This is not to say that there are not situations where they help, but keep in mind an entire trillions-of-dollars industry has sprung up to provide all sorts of 'barriers' and masks and disinfectants, so of course there is an avalanche of 'press releases' to the media (including the 'medical' journal media) telling us all about the latest thing we can buy (or get the government to buy) to keep safe. It would be wise to consider the source and motive before simply assuming that 'the more the better'. Some of the disinfectants, in particular, may well turn out to cause more harm than the virus they claim to thwart.

All this is just my opinion, but I do know a thing or two, so I'm not comfortable just standing by and watching people be manipulated, with efforts misdirected from better things they could do.

If people want to spend money or change behavior to protect themselves from Cronoavirus-19, they would be far better off emphasizing hand washing, or using basic (no aromatic hydrocarbons) hand sanitizers, and making sure they have adequate levels of Vitamin D, Vitamin C, and Zinc, perhaps Quercetin, so they are not as vulnerable to the virus. THESE things the government should be urging, and if they want to 'urge' masks because it makes some people 'feel safer' that is fine - but MANDATING masks is not only morally and legally wrong, but according to real-world observations, may be endangering lives more than protecting them. If so, who do we blame then...?

Finally – although the 'first peak' is hitting southern and western states (as predicted) now, the 'second wave' in Indiana has so far consisted mostly of 'cases' that actually happened back in March or April, but are being diagnosed only now, because curious people who felt ill a few months ago are now getting antibody tested. That is being misrepresented by those who stand to gain by manipulating public behavior, and they should be ashamed – but then we as 'news' consumers should be ashamed for believing them. Our 'culture', even in supposedly 'conservative' areas, has become one where dissenting thoughts or skepticism is not tolerated - we can't ask where the proof is that masks accomplish anything when [mis?]used as we are instructed, and merely suggesting that gets one accused of "not caring about grandma". It has become more important to 'show you care' than to actually do anything that actually may help reduce grandma's risk of CV19.

Anyway – we will wear masks BOTH when clinically appropriate (and yes, there are clearly times when they are appropriate and effective), and when required by the mayor. In the environment we are operating in right now, there is no clinical benefit I can discern, but we have to do what the Mayor mandates, or face legal penalties.

Perhaps someday the Mayor will develop this same amount of zeal towards requiring that individuals obey laws against murder, so we can pull down our record-breaking homicide rate, or requiring people obey laws against defecating on city streets, so we can have a sanitary and clean city once again. I didn't see many masks on the "peaceful" protesters who were setting fire to buildings downtown a few weeks ago, either, so I assume there is a Task Force working on tracking them down to issue fines for mask noncompliance.


Sometimes it helps to use analogies, or think through 'extreme-case' examples to analyze a situation. Here are a couple thoughts:

1. So far we have seen maybe three times the death toll of a typical 'flu season' - so in order to protect the more vulnerable people out there, we should either be doing only about three times as much disruption and behavior change as we do each year for the flu, instead of three-thousand times as much, OR each year from now on, we should do a third as much disruption and behavior change as we are now. Which is it...? I don't think EITHER is realistic.

2. Suppose a vaccine for Illness A costs $1.00 to each person, and has a one in a million chance of harm or death, versus the illness costing $10,000 to treat and killing one out of every hundred people. Clearly it makes sense to have the public get vaccinated, and most probably would. Just like forcing people to wear masks, you would hear some people say we should force people to get the vaccine.
Suppose with Illness B the vaccine costs $100, and the vaccine has a one in 10,000 chance of serious harm or death, versus the illness costing $200 to treat, and killing one out of every 2,000 people. Statistically, you could still make a 'case' for being vaccinated, but I'll bet many people would not want to take the vaccine. Should we FORCE them to do so...? If not, where is the line between disease A and disease B that we use to flip from 'optional' to 'mandatory'...? Who gets to decide...? What kind of 'data' do they get to use...? Can we see the data...? Question it...? What if there is conflicting data...?

Masks are clearly less harmful, though perhaps a bit more annoying, than vaccines, although since most vaccines have a near one-in-a-million death/severe reaction rate, I'll bet if a million people go around wearing masks for a year, at least one will have something bad happen due to the mask, perhaps distracting them somehow and they mis-operate a machine or whatever. Still, the PRINCIPLE is the same - at what point are we ok with FORCING society at-large to do something to 'make the streets safer'...?

It is somewhat like the 'gun control' debate, eh...?????
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by Blaine »

I've read many places that you can catch it if it gets in your eyes...I guess we'll all be wearing SCUBA gear?? 8)
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by Grizz »

here is my question . . .

it is said that the common cold is a covid, a variation of the 19

SO, WHY IS THERE NO VACCINE FOR THE COMMON COLD ?

I WILL TEST A VACCINE FOR 19 AFTER THERE IS A SUCCESSFUL VACCINE FOR THE COMMON COLD
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by JimT »

I am pretty ignorant about this kind of stuff ..

BUT ..

I did note that most all the people in Wuhan China wore face masks before the outbreak and still managed to become infected and spread it to world.

We maybe could learn from other countries such as Taiwan .. 7 total deaths due to the virus
Iceland .. 10 deaths
Singapore ... 22 deaths
Taiwan and Singapore are crowded places!
South Korea has had less than 250 deaths.
Japan has had less than a thousand.
The countries we seem to be copying ... Italy, Spain etc ... have had 30,000 deaths .....

As I said, I am ignorant of such things but it looks strange to me ....
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by Larkbill »

Here's another thought.

The folks telling us to wear masks have to know the masks most are wearing are largely ineffective. Are we being used as human lab rats to generate statistics that can be compared to the medical people who routinely wear NIOSH Level 3 approved masks?

I saw a quote from a technician who tested masks from various mfgs for NIOSH compliance. When asked about home made masks she said "why not just pull a fishnet stocking over your head?"

I have to admit I laughed at the image. But it isn't that funny.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by AJMD429 »

Grizz wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:50 am
I WILL TEST A VACCINE FOR 19 AFTER THERE IS A SUCCESSFUL VACCINE FOR THE COMMON COLD
Ahhh...but the government says they can FORCE you to get vaccinated.... :o

(...try that on me or my kin, and there would be a 'shot' given, but not quite the one they wanted...)
JimT wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:59 am
As I said, I am ignorant of such things but it looks strange to me ....
How DARE you apply 'common sense' when the experts are pontificating....!!!!
Larkbill wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:13 pm
When asked about home made masks she said "why not just pull a fishnet stocking over your head?"
...is that bad....???? :oops: :oops: :lol:
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by Larkbill »

In case you missed it (most likely because almost no one covered it) Fauci said back on May 28th that mask wearing should be done as a gesture that shows respect for other people. It's symbolic. He admitted they weren't 100% effective but wouldn't admit how much less. So that's where we are. Symbolic.

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On the boxes of face masks that we are required to use at work, it states that they do not protect the wearer from viruses. Further, it states that they stop most bacteria and liquid droplets coming from the wearer. All they really do is to help remind the chicken littles to keep 6 feet away. Our District Manager -who has been self quarantining at home for the last 4 months- makes wear the medical type masks. No cloth ones, even if we must re-use the masks for 2 days due to lack of availability.

Has anyone else seen the video of the guy using an OSHA approved air quality moniter with and without a mask. With a mask, it shows an increase in carbon dioxide and an a decrease in oxygen level to where OSHA considers it a threat to human life. Blue mask as is sold in most stores brings oxygen level under the mask to 16-17%. OSHA states that less than 19% is hazardous.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by KWK »

Put on a mask and it starts to get moist from your breath. The virus spreads through such moisture so apparently the mask is catching some of what you are spewing out.

Most people with Covid don’t know they have it. They are the reason behind the mask laws. The mask won’t prevent you from inhaling viruses in the air; it’s to catch some of what potentially sick people are trying to put into the air.

The mask laws in this oh so Blue state are fair. Wear them inside public places, where dilution with fresh air is minimal. Outside, they are only required in crowds. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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As perspective - around 25 million prescriptions are issued for ibuprofen each year, and there are around 16 thousand deaths attributed to it each year. There are of course many non-prescription users, but the higher doses are probably among prescriptions for 400 mg, 600 mg, and 800 mg, versus the 200 mg over the counter one. Regardless, taking ibuprofen is likelier to kill a person than being exposed to coronavirus....
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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OK, this is the kind of reality check I appreciate mucho! More such input please, if you got 'em. These covid facts NEED TO GO CORONAVIRAL
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by ndcowboy »

I have yet to see any bill about wearing masks go through a legislature, be debated and passed, and then signed into law by a governor or president. Until then, screw 'em. Still the United States and decrees don't apply to us.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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ndcowboy wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:26 am
I have yet to see any bill about wearing masks go through a legislature, be debated and passed, and then signed into law by a governor or president. Until then, screw 'em. Still the United States and decrees don't apply to us.
for that matter I have yet to see any bill that authorizes a state governor to strip citizens of their human rights and rule by dictat.

I hope that every one of the self-appointed dictators is sued in every court in the nation for irrepairable harm to citizens and treason against constitutional law . . .

but I am not holding my breath
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:| :|
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Yes “doc Graham”, the virus is very small, but it travels in water droplets, of various sizes, all far larger than that. :roll:

I’ve not seen any evidence either way as to how well the virus might be launched from a moist mask after its original water droplet is captured there. I’ve had that question but seen no answer yet.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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In fact, one Johns Hopkins doctor predicts we could be wearing face masks for several years—yes, even if we have a vaccine.

Per Eric Toner M D
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Why several years? An inability to produce vaccine fast enough?

Fingers crossed the two vaccines set to start final trials in the coming weeks pass testing. If China's home grown vaccines also end up working, that would relieve pressure on supplies to the rest of the world.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

Post by JimT »

Since I am ignorant of medical thing, there are questions to ask.
Such as: "How effective are vaccines for virus's?"
As in "the flu" ... how effective are they?
Since virus's mutate, how many mutations of Covid19 are known right now?
Which of the mutations will a vaccine work on?
And ... will you have to get it every year just like the flu vaccine?
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here is a popsci article with the opposite message, that the masks are absolutely effective in preventing the spread of the virus.....

https://www.popsci.com/story/health/cov ... effective/

not that I believe their POV, but cnn and every other propaganda puppet does believe this
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JimT wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:13 pm
Since I am ignorant of medical thing, there are questions to ask.
Such as: "How effective are vaccines for virus's?"
As in "the flu" ... how effective are they?
Since virus's mutate, how many mutations of Covid19 are known right now?
Which of the mutations will a vaccine work on?
And ... will you have to get it every year just like the flu vaccine?
The vaccine developed in Germany looks to be quite strong. The question is, did they target the correct part of the virus. The 2nd phase testing indicated the vaccine produced an immune system response stronger than an actual Covid infection does, but even that has questions surrounding it. The 3rd phase testing, to begin soon, will let them see if the vaccine actually keeps people "in the wild" from getting the disease -- big unknown.

There are a couple of variants of this virus, as I understand it. The one that hit Italy was a mutation of the original Chinese. I think it was the same mutation that hit NYC soon after. Suspicions are that it is deadlier than the original. It's not known how fast the mutations will come. I think the vaccine targets the "spike" on the surface of the virus. I don't know if this spike is mutating or if the other parts of the virus are mutating.

The flu consists of two major types each with dozens of variations that affect whether a vaccine will work on it. The current coronavirus is not so varied (right now).
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The one that hit Italy was brought in from China by the short term Visa garment workers. Whether it mutated or not, I have not heard. Viruses are able to mutate quickly because of their use of RNA instead of DNA. The quick mutation might make it either more or less dangerous.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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Here's a report on the mutation which hit Italy and NYC. The mutation is in the spike. Uh-oh: I sort of recall it is the spike the new type of vaccines are targeting.
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As noted above, in the early 20th century masks were used to trap infectious “droplets” expelled by the wearer thus possibly reducing disease transmission to others.
Such is what is being said today, in the early 21st century.

Pity the article didn't as thoroughly look at the effects of reducing airborne contagion. It did conclude a basic mask won't protect you from inhaling a virus, just as they are saying today. There remains debate as to how much contagion one needs to become infected as well as whether masks help to reduce what's floating in the air enough to matter. The experience of several Asian countries this year suggests it helps. I'll continue to don a mask in close public quarters until I read otherwise.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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I went looking for an answer to my previous question. Here are two articles describing why a mask is a good idea even if it doesn't protect you personally:

To quote from this one:
First of all, we show that the masks protect people in the surrounding area quite well, since the flow resistance of the face masks effectively prevents the spread of exhaled air, e.g. when breathing, speaking, singing, coughing and sneezing. Secondly, we provide visual evidence that typical household materials used by the population to make masks do not provide highly efficient protection against respirable particles and droplets...
and from this one:
Surgical face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets.
Use a mask, people. It’s preferable to having to lock down.

One point I'll note about the article to which the good doctor posted a link: That they knew years ago that your mask probably won't protect you is probably why early on in this fiasco the experts were saying to not bother with a mask. Add to that the WHO's claim it's spread only by big droplets, and you get "6 foot spacing is all you need." They are learning more each month.
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Re: Doc, your opinion, will blue Gov leaders..

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gamekeeper wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:16 pm
Well I wear a bandana when visiting the bank ..... cause I've always wanted to :lol:
I did this last week when I went into the bank with my daughter to set up her college card. Even took a selfie (probably one of only 5 in my life). :lol: :lol: :lol:
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On 'perspective' and science and healthy skepticism - https://mises.org/wire/covid-19-panic-s ... s-skeptics
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