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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by KWK »

While some, understandably, enjoy the "patina," I'm shallow and like a shiny new rifle. One can send some history off to a Turnbull to doll it up, or one can support the manufacturers who are keeping the old designs going. I'm in the latter camp, partly because I'm cheap, partly because I don't have enough knowledge of the collector pieces to figure out if I'm getting taken.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Buck Elliott »

You don't really want to know what I think of the BHA rifles..
The ones I've handled don't begin to live up to their hype..
They are purty though...
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by vancelw »

Buck Elliott wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:27 am You don't really want to know what I think of the BHA rifles..
The ones I've handled don't begin to live up to their hype..
They are purty though...
BHA had a booth at Dallas Safari Club Convention one year. If the rifles they had for show guns were the cream of the crop, I sure wouldn't be impressed with an "average" specimen.

I have Original Winchesters, Olin Winchesters, USRA Winchesters, Uberti/ Cimarron Winchesters, and Miroku (Browning and Winchester) Winchesters. I like them all.
Have never seen a Rossi cheap enough to tempt me.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by AJMD429 »

...
I have a BHA-89 and has been reliable, accurate, well-fit, and smoothed up nicely with use...
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I've looked at them because I would like a .500 Linebaugh levergun. But that is a lot of scratch and I have a hard time parting with it!

Gorgeous rifles and probably worth every penny.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by JimT »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:54 am I've looked at them because I would like a .500 Linebaugh levergun. But that is a lot of scratch and I have a hard time parting with it!

Gorgeous rifles and probably worth every penny.
We have common friend who has one or two. I was there when he shot a big hog with it. I handled the gun. It was nicely put together.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

JimT wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:45 pm We have common friend who has one or two. I was there when he shot a big hog with it. I handled the gun. It was nicely put together.
Jim, we have quite a few friends in common....even if you just count the Shootists!
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by wvfarrier »

Ive repeatedly eye Big Horn Armory guns but crickey they are pricey. Im too hard on my rifles to fork over that kind of dough
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Buck Elliott »

The. BHA M89 drfinitely looks great, but mechaically, is not what I seems to be. It has some simple design flaws which BHA decided not to address, prior to production. The idea at the time, the thinking was, "people will buy them anywway", because of the appearance and "novel" caliber..
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Buck, thanks for the heads up.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Buck Elliott »

The OLD guns some of you luse after we're NEW guns, once upon a time.
99.9% of the history and patina you love so much was added to them by someone you never knew, nor will know.
Histories happened.
"Patina" eventually took the place of New and Shiny, because of use and/or neglect..
It's all a fantasy - a pipe dream..
If that's YOUR pipe dream, buy a New gun, and add some stories and some "patina" to it, for your kids and grandkids. Document your life with it.
Just my $0.02 worth...
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Sixgun »

Buck Elliott wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:52 pm The OLD guns some of you luse after we're NEW guns, once upon a time.
99.9% of the history and patina you love so much was added to them by someone you never knew, nor will know.
Histories happened.
"Patina" eventually took the place of New and Shiny, because of use and/or neglect..
It's all a fantasy - a pipe dream..
If that's YOUR pipe dream, buy a New gun, and add some stories and some "patina" to it, for your kids and grandkids. Document your life with it.
Just my $0.02 worth...
Here Buck...this one has zero patina and is new as in N.E.W...built in 1891...how many more you want to see? :D

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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by OldWin »

For me, I love the look of honest wear on a quality firearm.
That said, it has to be well cared for. I don't like pitting, damaged wood, or uncared for internals or bores.
Every gun has a "feel". For me, it has little to do with finish, but if it doesn't have quality, it doesn't matter what it looks like.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by AJMD429 »

As a kid, my only 'boats' had been home-made rafts and eventually a second-hand canoe, so I never had a boat that had a 'name', and I always used to think it was sort of silly that people named boats. I'm still not a 'boat-person' but I've read many novels of sea-fairing adventure over the years, and think I understand now why a boat that someone lives on, and depends on, just might develop a 'name'. Part of that is because when you are that intensely involved using a piece of equipment day-to-day, you learn FAR more about its quirks, both model-based, as well as individual serial-numbered-item based - at that point you do appreciate it in a FAR different way than the casual outsider.

Sometimes I roll my eyes when I hear friends similarly name their firearms, or even just use a pronoun of affection such as 'she', to describe one of their favorite firearms. About as close to that as I ever get is saying things like "I think we have a problem here of a rather serious nature - perhaps it is time to see what Mr. Mossberg thinks we should do....", or "I think we need to introduce that rusty and uncooperative padlock to Mr. Blackhawk..." :D

After musing over these comments, I think an analogy would be 'guns' and 'friends'.

We have some friends who are as close or closer than our own siblings - those might be the ones with 'patina' - the worn-smooth ones, that have some dings, but we know exactly the extent we can count on them. Not always perfect by any means, but ones we regard with great respect and affection.

On the other hand, we have some friends, coworkers, and neighbors who may offer a specific benefit, and be great at that, but they aren't in our 'closest-friends' circle. The guy down the road who has a lathe and will turn parts for us, because we clear snow off his driveways every winter, or the neighbor who has a good kid who will always baby-sit on short-notice. Those are more like the Glocks, to many of us. You know you can count on them, but they aren't your confidants, and you probably don't go camping with them.

Rare is the person who only has friends in one category; we have close friends who may be 'useless' if you were to try to create a 'spreadsheet of friends' because there is an undefinable dimension to their relationship with you, and on the other hand, others who you interface with on a great deal of fronts, yet are 'interchangeable' in the sense that your main relationship with them is of a more pure business nature, and others may more easily substitute if they are out of town.

Same for guns. Rare is the person who ONLY owns vintage firearms, because there are reasons to own some more 'modern' ones, even if simply to cut down on costs, or have a gun you don't mind getting rusted if you are in harsh conditions, or stolen if you are in a rough area. There are a few people who ONLY have 'modern' guns, of varying degrees of quality, and have yet to enjoy the pleasure of a 'real' 100-year-old gem.....no different than the 30 year old who has been busy getting an education or established in their field, and has many 'practical' friends, but has yet to settle down in a community and join a church or form relationships from which a deeper and lifelong type of friendship will result.

So if we are lucky, after a few decades of firearms interest, we will have a safe full of a VARIETY of firearms, and most likely quite a few examples of one particular area of our interest, just as one might have a high percentage of friends who share an interest in bird-watching, farming, canoeing or whatever, or share our occupation. But we will eventually develop a 'core' set of firearms that we feel are inherently 'better' - and for many of us, that will mean a few (or many, if we have the means) 'vintage' firearms of the type we are fond of.

Nothing wrong with that variety.....the key is learning what combination meets YOUR needs.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by 6pt-sika »

Blah blah blah , I don’t apologize for what I’ve accumulated or my preferences . What another person desires doesn’t affect my own decision when it comes time for me to layout the scheckels . So buy what you want I D...A....M....N sure will .
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by OldWin »

Well said Doc. That's a good analogy.
Everyone has their own little quirks. I never owned a Rossi until a few years ago. I got shooting a lot of 38 and .357 and realized it would be neat to have a rifle chambered as such.
My bud that owns the shop I frequent had an old Rossi in his personal collection. For some reason it spoke to me. He had done the wood so it looked Winchester. It had a ring, and the finish had the right look. There was the worn eclipse where the ring banged around. Because my gunsmith buddy had it, it flat worked, and was smooth as could be. He had an old steel 66 Lyman on it too. He didn't want to sell it, so I knew it shot and worked. I finally conned it out of him. It's the only repro I currently own.
Strangely, my 357 SA's are way more classy. A minty 2nd gen Colt SAA and a super clean Ruger Flattop I got off my buddy 6.
When I was a kid, I made some cash on a 10" stainless Ruger SB and bought a Uberti SAA with the profit. It was pretty, and shot ok, but it just wasn't "right". I never warmed up to it and gave it to my dad.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Sixgun »

The Flattop? Another "buffalo coat thingy?" Hey! I didn't say ALL of those Rossi's were bad, just the ones they sell through gunshops.---------6
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by OldWin »

Sixgun wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:59 pm The Flattop? Another "buffalo coat thingy?" Hey! I didn't say ALL of those Rossi's were bad, just the ones they sell through gunshops.---------6

Hey hey hey, now wait a minute!
As I recall, I sent you some cash for the Flattop! I Will say, it's the only cash I've laid out.....
Wait....nope. I sent some for some brass and stuff to, I think.
In all honesty, I'd like to give you a bunch more. You got some goooooooood stuff down there! :D
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Sixgun »

Thanks buddy! Remember, no one remembers who came in second place......and ya got to get up preeeetttyyyyy early in the morning to beat ole Sixgun.....

Cash? Oh yea...caaassshhhhh....the old saying when I was a kid and people were saving change...I told them penny's and nickels won't get you far, large loot keeps your feet on the ground.....and my other mentor, a fine Jewish fellow always told me, "if you can't save a penny, how can you save a dollar?"

Jay....it's cold here, like Maine cold...can I borrow your buffalo coat tomorrow?----6......006
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by OldWin »

Sixgun wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:17 am Thanks buddy! Remember, no one remembers who came in second place......and ya got to get up preeeetttyyyyy early in the morning to beat ole Sixgun.....

Cash? Oh yea...caaassshhhhh....the old saying when I was a kid and people were saving change...I told them penny's and nickels won't get you far, large loot keeps your feet on the ground.....and my other mentor, a fine Jewish fellow always told me, "if you can't save a penny, how can you save a dollar?"

Jay....it's cold here, like Maine cold...can I borrow your buffalo coat tomorrow?----6......006
[/quote

Haha yeah, cash!
Sure! I will rent it to you. Or trade for some guns. After all, that coat is basically priceless! :D
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by marlinman93 »

I seriously doubt patina added to a new clone will ever add value to it. At least not in our lifetimes. And regardless of whether we know the history behind an old American made gun, it wont matter. It's always going to be appreciated for being an American made gun from a earlier period of gun history, and thus garner more value for that. Of course if by some chance an American made gun does indeed have provenance you can track, then it's value will be even greater! And there's no shortage of old used Winchesters to buy. A good number of the finest are indeed in collections, and not for sale, but just as many are readily available if the buyer doesn't mind paying the prices asked for them.
I'm not saying the clones shouldn't be appreciated, nor do I look down upon them. They are a wonderful option for anyone who wants to save money over buying an original of the same gun. But nobody should fool themselves into thinking that adding age or patina to a clone will ever make it worth even what they paid for it, let alone more.
Just buy them and enjoy them for what they are, not as an investment firearm. A scant few will go up in value, if they are sought after, and no longer made. Or if the quality is so high when built new that it's become appreciated. I've got a few clones in my safes that actually have gone up in value. An AWA .45 Colt SAA that I gave $275 for when new, and is as good as any original Colt SAA in fit and function. They're grabbed up quickly when they show up for sale. My other is a Ballard built in Cody, Wy. by the defunct Ballard Rifle Co. about 20 yrs. ago. It's a Schoyen Schuetzen rifle clone that was $2200 back then new. It's more than doubled in value over the last couple decades, and Cody built clones sell for far more than they cost new 20 yrs. ago.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Old Savage »

The clones are what is available. Have never seen a Win 92 in the local gun shops in 30 years and a lot of guns have gone through them.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by piller »

The Clone Wars! Send in the Clones!

Seriously, the quality on a clone could be good if the manufacturer cared. Most people are willing to pay more for quality versus paying less for junk. For example, who drives a Yugo? Who drives something that will get to 200,000 miles without a major overhaul? Who on this forum carries a cheap junk pocket knife? On another thread, several Spyderco knives were mentioned. Good quality. You can get better, but you will be paying quite a bit more. Quality matters even at the middle range price points. At the higher price points, lower quality just causes headaches and grief.
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Sixgun »

Old Savage wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:38 pm The clones are what is available. Have never seen a Win 92 in the local gun shops in 30 years and a lot of guns have gone through them.
Incredible....maybe that why I turn my nose up at a levergun made after the war....in my early days of being greedy....say.....seventies......1886's were common guns at local gun auctions....it was rare to see a '66 and I do remember distinctly several Henry's, one a clean military example I could have had for $4500....during those times I was keeping food on the table but as the years went on and people who bought these guns in the seventies started dieing off, they would reappear.....
......and I would remember these guns, having a photographic memory.....but only in the gun game as I don't remember nothing else.

By then I had the loot and bought em up. 2 local gunshops knew of my knowledge and would call me before pricing these guns and putting them up for sale...but......they KNEW they had to throw me a bone and that's how many of my finer examples followed me home.....like the John W. Hession SAA in 44 Russian and Capt.Nates Triplelock target, all info I got after lettering.

Don't think I bought 6 guns at gunshows over the past 40+ years and I would hit them every weekend but mostly for tang sights and old boxed ammo, accessories, the like...and to learn......you never stop learning....

As time went on I didn't even have to look for nice guns...they came to me via knocks on the door or phone calls....I always took care of these people in an honest transaction and they never forgot it, continuing to see me year after year, decade after decade...

Remember that factory prototype Marlin 336 that some guy posted here some years ago and thought it was worthless? I paid him well for that gun...he even said I was paying him too much.....well, he has called several times later with other acquisitions. Tom (Fordwannabe) now has that gun and I sold it to him in a way he can get his money back any day of the week with probably 10-15% interest a year...

So I say to the people right here on Leverguns who call me "greedy" and a "snob"....everyone has their methods of gaining wealth (in guns)....you can either get highly educated and have the money to buy what you want....you can be sneaky and give pennies on the dollar on someone else's guns....(neither one on those methods are sustaining) or you can just be honest and have the guns come to you.....ALL on a forklift drivers wages. :D -----as 6 says GFY. :D
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by piller »

Go Find-em Yourself? :lol:
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Sixgun »

piller wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:51 pm The Clone Wars! Send in the Clones!

Seriously, the quality on a clone could be good if the manufacturer cared. Most people are willing to pay more for quality versus paying less for junk. For example, who drives a Yugo? Who drives something that will get to 200,000 miles without a major overhaul? Who on this forum carries a cheap junk pocket knife? On another thread, several Spyderco knives were mentioned. Good quality. You can get better, but you will be paying quite a bit more. Quality matters even at the middle range price points. At the higher price points, lower quality just causes headaches and grief.
Yes Piller...EXCELLENT POINT!....and is exactly my argument......(I remember those Yugo's :D ). Common sense speaking....it how you focus on your priorities and what makes the most sense on how you spend your money.......saving money vs. longevity is the key.....on big ticket items I always bought the best, not in frills, but in how well it's built......like the $6,000 John Deere tractor I bought in 1975 and people were calling me stupid. In the 30 years I owned that tractor, I watched them go through a dozen Sears Craftsmans..... :D

Yep, we still use Maytag wringer washing machines here...year after year after year...no breakdowns.

The same ones who argue FOR Rossi's are guys who really know guns and have previously owned American junk......a well made and finely finished levergun that will provide its owner will decades of reliable service. Resale value is usually triple of what the original buyer pays for them and that's only if you have them for a couple of weeks......6.....de..bro
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Sixgun »

piller wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:20 pm Go Find-em Yourself? :lol:
Your close! :lol: ---6
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Griff »

Sixgun wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:32 pm
piller wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:51 pmThe Clone Wars! Send in the Clones!
Seriously, the quality on a clone could be good if the manufacturer cared. Most people are willing to pay more for quality versus paying less for junk. For example, who drives a Yugo? Who drives something that will get to 200,000 miles without a major overhaul? Who on this forum carries a cheap junk pocket knife? On another thread, several Spyderco knives were mentioned. Good quality. You can get better, but you will be paying quite a bit more. Quality matters even at the middle range price points. At the higher price points, lower quality just causes headaches and grief.
Yes Piller...EXCELLENT POINT!....and is exactly my argument......(I remember those Yugo's :D ). Common sense speaking....it how you focus on your priorities and what makes the most sense on how you spend your money.......saving money vs. longevity is the key.....on big ticket items I always bought the best, not in frills, but in how well it's built......like the $6,000 John Deere tractor I bought in 1975 and people were calling me stupid. In the 30 years I owned that tractor, I watched them go through a dozen Sears Craftsmans..... :D
Yep, we still use Maytag wringer washing machines here...year after year after year...no breakdowns.
The same ones who argue FOR Rossi's are the same ones who drive $60,000 pick up trucks and take exotic vacations around the world, only for the inhabitants of those countries laugh at them as they only want their money as they would cut their throat if they see them in a dark alley..... :D -----6..o......de..bro
Six, I think you're off the mark with the last comment.

I'm not "pro-Rossi" so much, and willing to entertain some work to get something that works if it fits in the budget. In outfitting my wife to shoot cowboy action with me... I compared several Marlin 1894s to several Rossis. A VERY common aliment of the .357/.38 Marlins was the Marlin Jam... Compared to the slightly rough action on the Rossi, the Marlin was a non-starter. Back in the mid-late-80s, there wasn't quite the knowledge base on eliminating the Marlin Jam. Smoothing up a Rossi was far less onerous and made for a very sweet shooter at the budget I had. When I came time to outfit my son, a year later, it was no contest. Nothing else was even considered. I was very happy with the cost, but more importantly, the wife was VERY happy with both the cost and resulting smooth action and her subsequent many wins and competitive finishes in our cowboy matches.
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Sixgun
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Sixgun »

Griff,
If you read through my posts for the last ten years you will see I have also badmouthed the Marlins made after around the mid nineties primarily the 1894. I've heard little to zero issues concerning the 1895 as 1895's were sometimes used for dangerous game while the 1894's were mostly for cowboy action and other weekend play so the company disregarded the 1894 in the quality control in favor of corporate greed. Marlin sure didn't want a guy getting chewed up by a bear using one of their guns....use common sense.

I don't read this stuff.....I hear it from the horse's mouth.....while I am myself a peon I know some people who are connected to important people high up in management. I've got a half dozen guns straight from the archive vault of two companies. One of a kind AR-15's, prototype 1911 double actions (sold that one) single action Colts...the FIRST two Colt 901's to come off the assembly line......you've seen some of the stuff I have.......one of a kind S&W's

Try getting a pair of these with these serial numbers....in THREE weeks they were delivered. A 38-40 and a 45. Yes, I'm proud of these as I was the first one since 1873 to think of these serial numbers.

I could write twenty pages on what goes on and believe me, the average guy is being sold down the tubes in favor of corporate greed......you won't hear these issues coming from military guns of any kind......or high dollar models....just the junk that's meant for the little guy. I said it somewhere else here lately, the gunshops I know WILL NOT HANDLE Rossi's or Ubertis. You will find them at mom and pop gunshops or gunshops that can live off of a 5% profit margin.........the same way you won't find a used Yugo at a Mercedes dealer......a high percentage of Rossi's and a fair amount of Italian repos are JUNK and I'll always stand by that.-----6.....006

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marlinman93
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by marlinman93 »

I don't see a lot of vintage rifles of any kind in local gun shops either. At least not on a regular basis, but it's likely because I'm not in them weekly like I was a couple decades ago when I was working. Back then I was running all over my area and any gun store I passed by, I stopped to look if I had a few minutes. So I saw a lot of guns then that I don't see in the last decade since I retired. I think you really need to figure out which stores never get good used guns in, and which do, and stop in once a week where they might. Those guns go fast when they come in, and stopping maybe once every couple months wont get it done.

I also attend our local collector gun show every month, and have tables set up there all year (except for this crazy year!!). So I see old lever guns for sale there every month, and plenty of them. It's just a case of whether they're a bargain, or over priced, not whether they're around there or not.
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6pt-sika
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by 6pt-sika »

marlinman93 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:22 am I don't see a lot of vintage rifles of any kind in local gun shops either. At least not on a regular basis, but it's likely because I'm not in them weekly like I was a couple decades ago when I was working. Back then I was running all over my area and any gun store I passed by, I stopped to look if I had a few minutes. So I saw a lot of guns then that I don't see in the last decade since I retired. I think you really need to figure out which stores never get good used guns in, and which do, and stop in once a week where they might. Those guns go fast when they come in, and stopping maybe once every couple months wont get it done.

I also attend our local collector gun show every month, and have tables set up there all year (except for this crazy year!!). So I see old lever guns for sale there every month, and plenty of them. It's just a case of whether they're a bargain, or over priced, not whether they're around there or not.
Used to be a bunch of places in central Virginia you could go to and expect to see some nice old stuff . Thats pretty much disappearred . I get some stuff thru a network of people with a common intrest and as much as I hate to admit it I've been buying a few from the big auction houses Morphy's , Poulin's and Rock Island .

There was and may still be a place called Dugan's Gunshop in Hughesville PA kinda outside of Williamsport . I was last in that place around 2005 so they may be the way of the Dodo bird now , but they were jam cram packed full of old stuff Winchesters Marlin's Remington's Savage's you name it they had it . However just about all the stuff had been in someones family a long time and as most people assume it's been messed with some so not cherry original as one would hope for .
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by 6pt-sika »

As a matter of fact just today I made a guy an offer on a circa 1908 Parker VH 28 nice little gun BUT it had been changed over to pistol grip and originally it was straight . The guy that has it also has an after market straight grip stock and the correct trigger guard with it so it could be back in original configuration but not the original wood . We're about $500 apart in the price so I let it go . If I didn't already have a very nice Parker VH 28 I would have made the deal already !
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
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Re: 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters' vs 'Winchesters'

Post by Bridger »

My Winchester 86 May not technically be a Winchester since it was built by Miroku but it sure is a nice rifle in my opinion and I’m very proud of it......
It was that or nothing for me as I couldn’t swing an original......
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