Looking for Photos of Damaged 60's, 66's and 73's.......

[Bryan Austin]

Looking for photos of such that claim stretched frames and or damaged toggles to post on the 44-40 website. Any caliber is fine as long as there are photos. Prefer descriptions of ammo, charges and powders used etc. I am looking for information and photos for the 60', 66 and 73's where folks are claiming "normal" loads are causing such issues. I already have a page for blow-ups and barrel bulges from obvious over pressure loads.

The information will be added here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... ed-toggles


Thanks Fellas!

[gamekeeper]

Back in the day they stood up very well to quite a lot of abusive type testing. Of course now we have to use more powerful ammo with all the critters wearing Kevlar.

[Bryan Austin]

Back in the day they stood up very well to quite a lot of abusive type testing. Of course now we have to use more powerful ammo with all the critters wearing Kevlar.

Define "more powerful ammo" in regards to this subject

[COSteve]

Done

[Sixgun]

1886 in 45-90 built in 1903 ...1800+ of warmish loads since I owned it from 1976-2003. Came apart in my hands...was told it was metal fatigue.......-----6

[Old Savage]

6, I saw a Marlin 1895 modern version that did the same thing. Analysis was the bullet was kicked into the barrel where a delayed "explosion" of the powder went off ripping the barrel open in much the same fashion. I talked to the shooter whose hand was badly injured. It was not a heavy charge but he was using large pistol primers that apparently caused an incomplete initial ignition.

[Bryan Austin]

I am looking for information and photos for the 60', 66 and 73's where folks are claiming "normal" loads are causing such issues. I should have been a bit more clear. I already have a page for blow-ups and barrel bulges from obvious over pressure loads.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... rel-bulges

THANKS

[Bryan Austin]

1886 in 45-90 built in 1903 ...1800+ of warmish loads since I owned it from 1976-2003. Came apart in my hands...was told it was metal fatigue.......-----6

Brutal!!

[Bronco]

Bet that stung

[JimT]

Bet that stung

It didn't just "sting" ...

[AJMD429]

Your elbow would have been far away and likely facing away from the gun...! That’s weird.

[gamekeeper]

Back in the day they stood up very well to quite a lot of abusive type testing. Of course now we have to use more powerful ammo with all the critters wearing Kevlar.

Define "more powerful ammo" in regards to this subject

My definition is any modern round that the Winchester or Henry was not originally designed for.
Improvement in steel has made it possible of course to use modern smokeless ammo in these modern replicas but there are always people who will push the boundaries even further, plus modern competition shooting probably means "some" of these rifles are fired far more often than back in the 1870s. The tests carried out in 1879 on the Winchester 76 were impressive but they were done using black powder and although bigger the 76 was still a toggle link action.
Interesting post by the way, I'm looking forward to seeing more information on this subject.

[Sixgun]

My elbow was directly underneath the forend/chamber area. I was shooting off the bench......I'm left handed so I take my right arm and swing it underneath for support.

When that round went off it was what guys who were in the military say when they are in an explosion....a bright white light....

Pieces of the forend went many benches down with one guy saying, "hey man, what's going on down there, a piece of your gun landed on my bench.

Never did go to the doctors......nowadays they harass you and call the cops if a gun was involved.......I just picked the stuff out of my arms for several weeks...pieces would fester and work their way out. It was funny though, when it first happened there were miniature 2 x 4"'s sticking out of my arm. ....should have taken a pic.

The other guys tried to encourage me to go to the hospital...I said, "what for...it's not as if an artery was hit and the only thing they are gonna do is clean it up, ask me a lot of questions, hold me there all day for the cops to question me then send me home with a $5,000 bill"..........Geeze , I did it myself for about $3 in peroxide and a bandage.......plus....the main reason I didn't go was I drove 26 miles to get to the club and I still had shooting to do.

I tell ya, I'd do anything to be in my forties again...feel good everyday, didn't worry about the little stuff, felt like I could take on an army....and win.....ya get in your sixties and you steamroll downhill.....it's hard to stay enthusiastic.....if at all.... -----006

[Bryan Austin]

My elbow was directly underneath the forend/chamber area. I was shooting off the bench......I'm left handed so I take my right arm and swing it underneath for support.

When that round went off it was what guys who were in the military say when they are in an explosion....a bright white light....

Pieces of the forend went many benches down with one guy saying, "hey man, what's going on down there, a piece of your gun landed on my bench.

Never did go to the doctors......nowadays they harass you and call the cops if a gun was involved.......I just picked the stuff out of my arms for several weeks...pieces would fester and work their way out. It was funny though, when it first happened there were miniature 2 x 4"'s sticking out of my arm. ....should have taken a pic.

The other guys tried to encourage me to go to the hospital...I said, "what for...it's not as if an artery was hit and the only thing they are gonna do is clean it up, ask me a lot of questions, hold me there all day for the cops to question me then send me home with a $5,000 bill"..........Geeze , I did it myself for about $3 in peroxide and a bandage.......plus....the main reason I didn't go was I drove 26 miles to get to the club and I still had shooting to do.

I tell ya, I'd do anything to be in my forties again...feel good everyday, didn't worry about the little stuff, felt like I could take on an army....and win.....ya get in your sixties and you steamroll downhill.....it's hard to stay enthusiastic.....if at all.... -----006

I bet that stug!!! Yeousers!!!!!

[Bryan Austin]

Back in the day they stood up very well to quite a lot of abusive type testing. Of course now we have to use more powerful ammo with all the critters wearing Kevlar.

Define "more powerful ammo" in regards to this subject

My definition is any modern round that the Winchester or Henry was not originally designed for.
Improvement in steel has made it possible of course to use modern smokeless ammo in these modern replicas but there are always people who will push the boundaries even further, plus modern competition shooting probably means "some" of these rifles are fired far more often than back in the 1870s. The tests carried out in 1879 on the Winchester 76 were impressive but they were done using black powder and although bigger the 76 was still a toggle link action.
Interesting post by the way, I'm looking forward to seeing more information on this subject.

In 1895 Winchester specifically calls out the Model of 73' on their new smokeless ammo loads. I would say Winchester knew what they were doing.

More info on Winchester 44-40 cartridges here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =897374983

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[Bryan Austin]

Here are some photos of my Uberti 73' that have had countless SAAMI Max pressure 44-40 loads shot through it with Reloder 7. Notice the unburnt skeletons. I tested 26.5gr of Reloder 7 in the 20"x 1 1/4" MGM "test" barrel with a 217gr 43-215C lead bullet. This was test #72 of 83 (ten shot groups) I performed with various loads of different powders, bullets primers cases etc. This particular load recorded 1,469 fps @ 12,971 psi ( round it up to 13,000 psi) and loose 4" groups at 100 yards.

For the Winchester 73', I backed it down to 25.8gr and eventually settled for the 43-214A cast .428" (.429" bore), 220gr. Velocities are stable at 1,350fps with pressures estimated to be 11,500 psi to 12,500 psi. SAAMI max is 11,000 (MAP) psi, 11,300 psi (MPLM) and 11,700 psi (MSLM) with CCI 300 primers and Starline brass.

So far, no ill results and I am grouping 4" 10 shot groups @ 100 yards. My best group was 3.30" and 3.15 MOA. Having lots of fun at 250 yards as well. I'd go further but that's the furthest range I have had available. Toggles are as tight as they were when I got the rifle and it had already been shot in CAS matches when I got it.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...amaged-toggles

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[Sixgun]

Bryan...nice write up!.....it's nice to see someone who knows what they are talking about.....I like the scope rig.....

You have a good rifle that was made on a good day.....429 groove diameter you say? What do you size the bullets at? See if it will take a .431 bullet....your groups are good for 10 shot groups....

A fatter bullet in the chamber will help to centralize the bullet with the bore even better......wouldnt surprise me to see you go to 2" groups.....

I never had any luck with the slower powders in the 44 or the 38-40.....Bulleye with 6 grains will do 2" for 5 shots when I was able to see the sights better...it's right at match velocity......and this was using original 1873's or original '94 Marlins....an 1889 in 38 will do it to with the same load of bullseye....

.....plus, you'll save a lot of money on powder! ---6

[Bryan Austin]

Bryan...nice write up!.....it's nice to see someone who knows what they are talking about.....I like the scope rig.....

You have a good rifle that was made on a good day.....429 groove diameter you say? What do you size the bullets at? See if it will take a .431 bullet....your groups are good for 10 shot groups....

A fatter bullet in the chamber will help to centralize the bullet with the bore even better......wouldnt surprise me to see you go to 2" groups.....

I never had any luck with the slower powders in the 44 or the 38-40.....Bulleye with 6 grains will do 2" for 5 shots when I was able to see the sights better...it's right at match velocity......and this was using original 1873's or original '94 Marlins....an 1889 in 38 will do it to with the same load of bullseye....

.....plus, you'll save a lot of money on powder! ---6

Thanks Sixguns

I keep my cast diameters at .428 as to help keep pressures down with harder cast bullets. The lead is soft enough to expand into the grooves at such pressures as opposed to lower pressures like only 7,000 psi. Hard lead will not expand as much with such low pressures. Interestingly, original loads used pure lead and aside from the quick pressure spike of some smokeless powders, those early black powder loads could very well have produced 14,000 psi (not cup) as seen in my tests BUT the soft lead would expand into the bore as needed. I have tried various larger sized bullets, both cast and jacketed. What many folks don't understand is that the hard, larger diameter bullets can create much higher pressures when trying to replicate 1,300 fps loads. This is why it is critical to NOT try and develop 44-40 loads based on Velocity alone. Using a .430 hard cast or jacketed bullet in a .429 bore can result in higher pressures than using a .428 in a .429 bore. It is okay as long as you follow currently published loads but NOT when developing your own. Accuracy is not always improved with a larger bullet diameter. The rule of thumb is to only use about .001 larger diameter than the bore but only with published loads. This is why Buffalo Bore published such warnings when using their standard pressure 44-40 "Heavy" loads. I could be wrong but when I dissected their cartridge, I found the bullet to be of the "Magma" design cast with hard lead and sized .428". Here is their reasoning:

Back in the 1800’s, there was no way for the gun/ammo industry to standardize pressures or firearm dimensions, hence my hesitancy to produce modern ammo designed for specific firearm dimensions of today. Allow me to give you an example of just one set of dynamics that are problematic. Early Colt revolvers specified a bore diameter of .427 inch, (44 SPL and 44 Mag. utilize .429 inch bore diameters) but some of those revolvers used a chamber throat of .423-.424 inch. This was done to raise pressures with black powder and get uniform ignition and higher velocity from revolvers (this is not an issue with rifles) by forcing that soft, pure lead bullet of around .427-.428 diameter into the smaller chamber throat and forcing that chamber throat to size down the bullet………...then, when that soft bullet would hit the .427 bore, it was soft enough to “slug up” to .427, seal the bore, shoot accurately and at high velocity. So, here’s one of the problems in making modern ammo……. if someone is negligent enough to fire modern ammo featuring HARD CAST bullets through an old revolver with such undersized chamber throats……hard cast bullets are much harder than pure lead and if you try to force a very hard bullet through a grossly undersized chamber throat, that hard bullet will not easily size down like pure lead and would, therefore, raise pressures higher than the old iron (not steel, but iron) revolvers can withstand. To avoid this type of issue, please do not shoot this modern 44-40 ammo through any revolver made before 1900. By 1900, the steel used for these revolvers, was actually steel, not iron.

Seating depth is crucial as well for pressures and some 44-40 (original design) bullets have a deeper seating depth than the modern "Magma" design aka Laser Cast, Cowboy, Desperado etc., that most people use. The Lyman 427098 and Accurate molds custom "Lyman 427098 modified's" like the 43-124A, 43-215C etc can be seated deeper.

Anyhow, for the 73' I am happy with what I have but for the Marlin 1894CB....I have done things that would make the hair stand up on the back of your neck!

The highest pressure load I tested was 12gr of Unique. This was not done in a firearm but in my 1 1/4" diameter MGM barrel mounted in a homemade contraption. It produced 21,786 psi at only 1,635 fps. This 21,000 psi load is too high to accurately estimate CUP but it could be anywhere from 25,000 cup to 30,000 cup, just inside normal 240gr 44 Magnum pressures.

Here is my best target with such "normal" max pressure loads from the 73". I have shot many 10 groups like this but this 30-40 shot group really shows off the true accuracy of the cartridge and firearm at 100 yards....could be better with a better shooter!!!

I don't know why the Ballistic-X app put a black line over the first group's measurement but...
44-40,
43-214A,
Starline brass,
cci-300 primers,
CL-1.300,
AOL 1.604"

Velocity - 1,350fps
Distance - 100 Yards

Ballistic-X_8-17-19-3.jpg

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[Sixgun]

Wow! Your experiments are 10x more scientific than mine. I pretty much just use common sense loads and alloys with a touch of knowledge thrown in.

And yes...I can and do understand the importance of ammo and bullet design/alloy/load upon iron framed guns. Forgot how many rounds (10's of thousands) that I've pushed down..and still do....the bores of 1873's (first models through third) Colt Lightnings, early '92's, Remington Keenes, on and on...and lately an late 1880's Merwin & Hulbert in 44-40.....

Many of these guns have digested 1,000 to around 5,000 rounds with no noticeable wear to the innards.....I keep em clean.....the bores will look shiny after 1,000 rounds.

I have always loaded cast a thousandths over, many times .002. If I don't get acceptable accuracy I get rid of the gun. My maximum criteria is 3" at 100.....(when I was able to see the sights that good)

Alloy is 99% of the time wheelweights with 2% tin.....softer than #2.....for more modern guns made after 1900 the alloy stays the same except if it's a higher velocity round like the 30-30 or certain 45-70, 40-65, .348's etc....then those guns will get wheelweights + 4 % tin...I keep it simple. All of my many single action Colts, Rugers, Smiths get the softer alloy even if it's a 44 Magnum.

Don't forget about bolt thrust in the old guns.....with light to moderate loads, there is little to none. Even my friend Jack Kort proved this....

Happy shootin' and thanks for sharing your in depth experiments and experiences.

Loading this with smokeless is a challenge but a rewarding experience. Hits beer cans at 100 meters....Hensley and Gibbs 210 with 6 of Herco.------6

[M. M. Wright]

Six, I really like your Merwin Hulbert. Had one just like it and can't remember what kind of fit of ignorance I had to let it get away. They have such tight clearances that they gum up real quick with black but that's what I ran in mine. I use an RCBS mold that throws a 200 grain bullet that looks a lot like the ones in your pic. It's only .427 diameter after lubing and sizing but worked OK in the MH. Not so hot in either of my Winchester 73 SRCs. One is from 1885 and the other is Miroku. They both slug .431 which makes loading a single load for both old Colts and the 73s problematic. What I have done is ream the throats of two of my CFSS to .429 which allows me to load them with the .429 bullets and still use that load in one of the Winchesters. Not the greatest accuracy but good enough for SASS. For longer range with ffg and the same bullet I use my Uberti 73 Sporting Rifle. It slugs .429. Not to worry old Colt lovers, the altered Colts are a 2nd and a 3rd although I doubt anyone would notice a few thousandths out of the throats of even the finest 1st gen cylinder. I know it would make it shoot better.

[Sixgun]

I hear ya MM....like you said these M&H have fit and finish that's unparalleled with anything off the shelf today or for that matter, in any time. It's hard to narrow down the DOM as I can't find records......best I could do is somewhere around 1887-1892 or so. Yea...we all have let go some good stuff but not much, for me.....I just got that revolver last year about this time at a 2 cent auction where no one knew what it was....I did....factory elephant ivories too.

Your right as to nobody noticing a couple of thousandths being removed from the throats....who's to say it wasn't that way?
We boys who have been playing with the 44-40 in original guns know all about the tolerance issues. In those days ...as we know.....revolvers were short range guns and they could care less on the accuracy...they wanted minute-of-man. Today, we want minute-of-beer-can at 100 yards away. -----6

[Bryan Austin]

Don't forget about bolt thrust in the old guns.....with light to moderate loads, there is little to none. Even my friend Jack Kort proved this...

THANKS!

Much of what I learned with with John's help and much input. John posted a tad on the bolt thrust but I have never been able to re-locate it. I was going to add it to the website.

That is one sweet revolver ya got there. BTW, what is the code stamp on that box of Western cartridges?

[Bryan Austin]

Well what ya know? I did find it. It led me back to your video and then to the secondary topic Lets Talk Bolt Thrust. Any chance you can post the video, youtube link no worky

I have some of this loaded up on the 44-40 web site but it needs editing before I can publish it. The link will be here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... authuser=0 However, Sixgun...since you started it, I'd like to credit you for it as well.

[Sixgun]

I could not find my video....I have 19 videos under "sixgun Jack" and it's not there....I don't know, maybe they have a moderator there too.

I was using an early Colt lightning in 44 (serial 58) that does not lock up...the early ones were like that...long story.

Jack Kort's word was gold to me...he really knew what he was talking about...I miss him..a very good and dear friend...

I have to take the wrapping off to look for the code...I'll get to it.....the box on the bottom is like new..probably thirties.



A very early full and all original box of factory black powder 32-20....one of my favorites...if it was in 44 it would worth over a grand, maybe more.

[Bryan Austin]

Oh no need to take the wrapper off. I'd hate for something to happen to the box, I'd feel real bad. It's not important...I was just gonna try to get a date off the code. Those are some nice boxes.

[Bryan Austin]

If you think your 73' has been exposed to covid...err...I mean Over Pressures, there is a simple way to check for stretched toggles....or even worn out toggles from wear.

There is a quick test you can perform to check your 73's bolt if you suspect the toggles are getting worn or stretched due to wear or over pressures. The obvious is to check the toggles themselves for excessive play. The other is to check the Case head Clearance. (see photos and video)

1. measure the case length of an empty resized case.
2. Finger start a spent primer
3. Insert case into rifle chamber and close bolt. This will push (seat) the primer into the primer pocket. The primer should not seat fully into the primer pocket.
4. Remove and remeasure case length with the primer seated by the bolt
5. Do the math

The goal is have a difference of only .006", my Ubert 73' is .007" and my Marlin is .006"...no change since I got both over ten years ago.

For photos and a video: https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... t-pressure