LEVER GUN AMMO

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Grizz
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LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Grizz »

Screenshot (1799).png
the information on this website is very specific and instructive. I know that there are lots of shooters who already know all about this subject, way more than I know in fact. I am posting this for the curiouser . . .

the TKO information is a perfect way to compare bullets and loads. So comparing the TKO of a 500+gr bullet to a 420gr bullet gives an indication of the potential damage down range.

https://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

there are several factors, one is the bullet material itself. these are "superhardcast", an alloy that is low deformation, and not frangible. if the bullet deforms going through the animal, then it is losing energy, collapsing the temporary cavity, and generally making a nuscience of itself compared to a solid.

three of my loads look like this: cal weight mv me tko

45/70 425 1450 1983 40
45/70 525 1550 2800 53
.69 RB 492 1350 1990 65

I have a lot of tangible feedback from the rifle loads because I've shot a lot of water jugs and steel plates and firewood, and cannonballs with them . . . those bullets are from beartooth bullets and are the best alloy, by testing, that I've shot.

the 12ga RB I've shot at steel plates and dirt banks. the ones I bought are soft lead, and they deform to a flat thin disc. deformation decreases momentum. when I start casting RB for the shotty I will endeavor to make hard cast to stop the deformation.

anyway, this may be of interest to someone. or bots perhaps . . .

you can take your current loads and plug them into the calculator and compare TKO, which factors momentum into the numbers. then consider what you've seen your loads do, or not do, in relation to bullet hardness.

either one of my rifle loads can through penetrate from any angle any animal on the NA continent, which point I infer by comparing my data to Mr Garrett's data.

my 44mag load is a 405gr BTB at 950 currently. someone loaded it to equal Marshall's velocity and penetrated 12 one gallon water jugs, SAME AS my 525gr rifle load. Literally a buffalo load from a 5.5 inch revolver.

good shootin' neighbors
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Pisgah
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Pisgah »

Not saying that's not a heckuva load, but you need to know that TKO is a virtually meaningless number for most hunting loads except in specific circumstances. Specifically, TKO was intended to compare the stunning effect of a head shot on REALLY big game like rhino and elephant. In other words, how well it will stop, at least temporarily, the biggest game before you're stomped to jelly. It says nothing about bullet/load performance in any other scenario, and it wasn't intended to.
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DocRock
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by DocRock »

The rule with lead is "as soft as possible; as hard as necessary" . BHN 25 at 1350 fps, is a clear violation of the rule and completely senseless.

Below 1800 fps, anything above BHN 15 is almost certainly a recipe for leading, even with good bullet to barrel fit. "Hard cast" or "Super hard cast" bullets are a convenience for bullet and ammo makers because the lead will not deform in transit and requires less sturdy and expensive packaging. It does no good for shooting and is far less effective on game than a softer lead that will deform, expand, and shed it's energy inside the carcass. Unless one is shooting very heavy, dense boned game where penetration requires breaking through thick bone, hard lead is a very bad idea. And for such game, the heaviest of the bovine - African buffalo, watusi, etc, - elephants, and rhino, you would be better served by a copper or bronze solid in any event. BHN 25 will in fact be fairly brittle and much likelier to break up than copper or bronze. BHN 25 is silly. For Kodiak grizzly, BHN 18 would be as hard as one would want.

The idea that one doesn't want a round to shed its terminal velocity inside game is entirely wrong. A "Super Hard Cast" bullet arriving at 1000 - 1100 fps will drill straight through soft tissue pass clean through an animal and end up expending its energy in the next dense thing it hits: earth, tree, rock, etc. It will break bones but will likely break up when it does so. A BHN 10- 12 bullet (about ideal for 1350 fps) bullet arriving at 1000 - 1100 fps will break bones too, but will expand significantly, likely to .600 - .750" shortly after entry, will be less likely to shatter on impact with bone, and will dump almost all its TKO energy inside the animal - thereby more effectively using its energy .

500 plus grs of .460" lead at BHN 8 -10 at 1350 fps muzzle velocity did a lot of buffalo killing. Nothing harder is required or to be desired. If shooting Cape Buffalo, use a copper or bronze solid.
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Grizz
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Grizz »

Pisgah wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:28 pm Not saying that's not a heckuva load, but you need to know that TKO is a virtually meaningless number for most hunting loads except in specific circumstances. Specifically, TKO was intended to compare the stunning effect of a head shot on REALLY big game like rhino and elephant. In other words, how well it will stop, at least temporarily, the biggest game before you're stomped to jelly. It says nothing about bullet/load performance in any other scenario, and it wasn't intended to.
thanks for responding. not meaningless to me. I get a lot of information when I'm comparing loads and choosing components. I think you didn't read what I posted.
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Grizz
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Grizz »

@docrock,

thanks for the response. that may be your rule, but it is not mine. some of your assertions are flat wrong. but I don't care.
I like sharing info with people anyway, even though some experts already know everything and can't learn anything else. I guess.

Out of curiosity, how many animals have you killed with hard cast lead bullets from loads similar to the ones I mentioned? And how many of those rounds have you shot that you are certain will lead barrels? And how many animals have walked away after you shot them with the loads you don't like?

I've shot hundreds of rounds of hard cast bullets from rifles and pistols, at velocities from 950fps to 1750fps, and the barrels aren't leaded. And I've lived off of venison, shot with a number of guns with a variety of loads and have refined my loads, mostly before the internet existed.

Just curious about your test results. Thanks
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DocRock
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by DocRock »

Proof that some things can't be fixed. I tried.
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AJMD429
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by AJMD429 »

Well, I have less experience than either of you guys, so I'm going to pay some attention to both, but not chisel anything into stone just yet... :wink:

If we all knew everything and agreed about it, these forums would be pretty boring.
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Grizz
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Grizz »

AJMD429 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:18 am Well, I have less experience than either of you guys, so I'm going to pay some attention to both, but not chisel anything into stone just yet... :wink:

If we all knew everything and agreed about it, these forums would be pretty boring.
me too. I've got a lot more to learn.

Doc, this topic has been exhaustively researched with high quality testing. If you are interested you can search this forum, as well as the other ones, for "heavy for caliber" loads, tests, results, etc.

for example,
Below 1800 fps, anything above BHN 15 is almost certainly a recipe for leading
this is completely disproven by actual factual evidence and experience.

or:
hard lead is a very bad idea. And for such game, the heaviest of the bovine - African buffalo, watusi, etc, - elephants, and rhino,
is also disproved by actual hunters hunting exactly those animals. With 45/70 leverguns and hard lead projectiles. All of the African DG have been taken with Garrett's ammo. And there are hunters who sometimes post here who've done it.
is far less effective on game than a softer lead that will deform
this is remarkably at odds with actual reality, and is based on debunked internet wisdom that keeps getting copied and pasted... And I think would not be allowed in Africa hunting DG.
The idea that one doesn't want a round to shed its terminal velocity inside game is entirely wrong.
this is another myth, which modern use of gelatin exposes. my 45/70 load penetrates 12 one gallon water jugs, (the wags will note that it is a great load if the water attacks me. haha.), which is equivalent to more than the length of two gel blocks. But, look what happens to a soft bullet that expands and stops and "dumps its energy", the bullet stops short because it doesn't have the energy to continue on through bone, breaking hips and shoulders. Compare the temporary wound channel and the permanent wound channel. Those soft bullets tend to stop at bone, like shoulders, while the hard cast bullets will go through all the bone in the animal. An Alaskan guide, with a tyro bear hunter had to stop the wounded bear, that circled the party to kill the shooter. 45/70 hardcast, through the hind quarters, took out both rear hip joints, imobilizing the bear before it could reach the "hunter". A soft lead slug will not do this.

You know, arrows commonly through-penetrate deer. Does this mean that they "dumped their energy" into the hillside rather than in the deer?

Anyway this whole topic has been explored, tortured, bantied, agitated, and mercilessly pounded. Some of the levergunners you might know from this forum actually did their own testing and learned something they didn't know.

I Invite any and every interested shooter to contribute any ACTUAL factual REPEATABLE FORENSIC EVIDENCE in support of any point of view. Self proclamation of expertise doesn't count in the age of fake news. "Just the facts, M'am"

My original purpose was to introduce people to Garrett's loads, which detail his data in such a way that you can compare the forces at work at the business end of the projectiles, which are based on comprehensive testing and actual data, and learn a WHOLE BOAT LOAD of info that can influence our thinking and the results of our loading and hunting.

unsubstantiated assertions are fake news.....

Grizz sends
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DocRock
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by DocRock »

Grizz, you have opinions, not facts. You demand the evidence that you yourself cannot provide. Your opinions are wrong and it's a shame to see them possibly misleading people new to the game. I don't know where you heard this stuff other than from commercial casters trying to sell what's convenient for them to buyers. I hope folks reading this won't be taken in by your bluster.

But just to humor you, here's the forensic evidence on the effectiveness of 20:1 or softer alloy at 1350 fps or so:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sSxThL7UV_8/ ... ,+1870.jpg
Bronco
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Bronco »

Looks like we got us a troll! Now to decide what hardness of lead to use and how hard to push it :mrgreen:
I read a paragraph about melting lead and I am an expert! There ain't nuttin left fer me to lern :roll:
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by fordwannabe »

We can and do disagree on occasion but please play nice.
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CowboyTutt
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by CowboyTutt »

Below 1800 fps, anything above BHN 15 is almost certainly a recipe for leading, even with good bullet to barrel fit.
Doc Rock, I'm confused. Not looking for an argument here, but more information would be appreciated. Its just this comment doesn't make sense to me, or my experience. Since everyone who has a keyboard is somehow now an expert, I went to another source, its called a book. According to Mic McPherson's book "Metallic Cartridge Handloading", leading is defined as "the deposit in a bore from lead or lead alloy bullets; results either from excessive frictional heating or from gas cutting." So typically, at least as I am aware of, the more you increase the velocity of the lead bullet, you have to increase its hardness, and then even add gas checks to reduce leading. So I don't understand this comment that you made that a harder bullet would lead more. I have a 71/84 Mauser I've been known to put to good extreme long range use, and I had to use black powder lead bullets in 485 grain at one point. Leaded like crazy. Once I got a custom mold made, and using wheel weights cast by a friend, the leading went "back to normal" and was greatly reduced. So I don't understand how a harder bullet results in more leading automatically unless its terribly over-sized???

As to the TKO formula, I agree with Grizz, I do like it, and tend to play with it as I think the ME formula also has its limitations. As someone posted above, the TKO formula was designed in advance to mirror the hunting experiences of Taylor and is about "stopping power" with large caliber bullets. As a formula it starts to fall apart with more modern high velocity cartridges which didn't even exist at the time, but still has its uses for comparison purposes in many large caliber cartridges from 375 and up at an estimate. It actually makes sense IMHO for Garret Cartridges to use it as the formula is a very good fit for that application. They also have a lot of experience with their bullets taking lots of game all over the planet and its hard for me to over-look their experience in this matter.

I would like to share one experience that might be slightly relevant however and actually supports some of what you are saying in other parts of your comments.

I have a "upgraded" Rossi 454 Casull built for me by McPherson. It has so many upgrades, too long and not relevant to mention. The Shootists used to use bundled up newspaper tied up tightly and soaked in water overnight for their penetration tests. This goes back a long ways to when John Linebaugh was first coming out with his cartridges and test firing them.

Well, I'm no Shootist, but I piggy backed on that years ago, and I got a big banker box of printing paper and shot a Kelley Schlep "Punch Bullet" which was a machined brass exterior with a lead core and compared it to a Cast Performance "hard cast" bullet. Both about 320 grains. The "Punch Bullet" (this was for a short time picked up by Grizzly Cartridge company before being discontinued) looked like it could be reloaded again and traveled 2x the distance into the copy paper. The "hard cast" CP bullet, shattered into pieces at half the distance. That being said, both were being driven at about 1900-2000 fps into a type of paper that has a lot more clay in it.

But it does build the argument that "hard cast" lead bullets can shatter if too hard and brittle. At much slower velocities, I doubt this is a problem and anecdotal hunting experience trumps hypothetical theories all the time. Woodleigh and Nosler and others have been doing it this way for decades. Proof in the field. Garrett a long time too now I think. Maybe trust the professionals.

At the lower velocities that people are talking about in this thread, as long as the lead hardness is matched to barrel velocity, lead works great.

Hawk Bullets is unusual in that they use a "dead soft" copper jacket around a pure lead core with good results. As to what is more important, bullet expansion and "hydrostatic shock" and lots of meat damage too probably, or if its a bigger, thicker target where penetration counts more (thus back to the TKO formula and the importance of momentum), just reverse engineer the whole thing from a terminal ballistics standpoint. What is your bullet, what was it designed to do at what terminal velocity, what is your target, how thick is it, how far away is it, and you will always be OK. The Nosler Partition bullets are very well known for being reliable and forgiving for 75 years.

I'm not personally such a big fan of lead unjacketed bullets, so I have real no "dog in this fight" but they certainly have their uses. I've been curious to try Paco's deferentially heat treated lead bullets where he puts them in water and anneals the tips with a torch. Smart man that guy. Maybe why he started a forum we can all enjoy.

Regards, I'm still learning....

-Tutt
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DocRock
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by DocRock »

Tutt,

At a certain point, roughly 1800 fps, moving lead faster does indeed need it to be "harder" but at no speed is 25 BHN either necessary or advisable. It's too brittle to have good terminal ballistics and simply unnecessarily hard.

Below 1800 fps, 15 BHN is hard enough, though as you note, it will want gas checks, that while it may obturate to varying degrees depending on initial chamber pressure, it is unlikely that the nose will slump or deform. Down at 1350 fps, BHN 10 -12 is hard enough. Again, with proper bullet fit, there will be a degree of obturation, and the lead will be soft enough to fill the grooves, leave the barrel correctly, and have good terminal ballistics. The maleability of lead is one of its features that makes it such a good material for projectiles. Making it needlessly hard diminishes the benefits of it maleability. The problem with using lead that is too hard for velocity is that even with good bullet fit, it promotes skidding. The lead is too hard to obturate sufficiently, and as it revolves down the barrel it may skid along the edge of the grooves, depositing lead there. While good bullet fit, lube and gas checks can mitigate this tendency, it is an unnecessary risk because there are no terminal ballistic benefits to such a hard lead at 1100 -1200 fps terminal velocity on game. There is no expansion unless it hits bone and fragments, not an ideal outcome. But softer lead deforms more easily and in order for loaded ammunition or cast bullets to look nice when opened, they need to be packed more effectively, more expensively. So commercial casters tend to use harder alloys than are needed or desirable and then market these overly hard bullets as magic. They aren't.

But don't take my word. Read Fryxell, Taylor, Keith, Kelter and others. They will all have very different views than the Garrett marketing department. Matching alloy to velocity is a widely understood requirement.
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CowboyTutt
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by CowboyTutt »

I've not heard of "bullet skidding" before, at least not down the barrel, maybe in the chamber just before engaging the rifling. I'm looking into it. Frank of Mt. Baldy Bullets used to make me 452 360 grain bullets at BHN 22 years ago. I sure miss those Punch Bullets but I found a worthwhile substitute recently and have about 150 of them now:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019442111?pid=449657

300 grains of CNC machined solid copper. Should kill anything that walks, crawls or drinks beer out of my 454 revolvers or rifle. Lehigh makes all sorts of neat bullets now. Prices are surprisingly reasonable for the quality. Lead is good for plinking and not starting fires. :D
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CowboyTutt
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by CowboyTutt »

In terms of "bullet skidding" this might be of some value even though its an internet source. Its from a forensic science program for firearms created in part by Dr. Savage (great name!).

https://projects.nfstc.org/firearms/mod ... ir_m01.htm

As to "bullet skidding" from the same source:

https://projects.nfstc.org/firearms/mod ... %20bullet.
Skid marks (slippage) form on the bearing surface of bullets as they enter the rifling of the barrel before the bullet engages the rifling. Skid marks are typically produced by revolvers and have the appearance of widening the land impressions at the nose of the bullet. Taking measurements in this area should be avoided; base measurements are more accurate.
As to "bullet skidding" down the barrel, according to my sources its at best an internet myth. There are apparently only 2 sources of leading in firearms, from gas cutting which is a failure of sufficient obturation to seal the bore at the corners of the lands OR overheating caused by TOO MUCH obturation pressure causing too much friction causing more surface heating than the lead can carry away fast enough which makes it go soft.

I'm not sure about the Garrett cartridges, I have no experience with them at all. Apparently the company was sold to one Ashley Emerson who personally casts the bullets and loads the ammunition. Curious what Mr. Emerson would have to say here as he has designed his cartridges standing on the shoulders of Mr. Garrett and expanding upon it. I'm guessing he is an ethical firearms person though. I can tell you Grizz is a decent guy and a fellow Christian of deep faith here. I also think you are a good ethical firearms person and you totally got it right when you said, "Matching alloy to velocity is a widely understood requirement" and I would agree with you that is probably true, at least in accepted and conventional thinking. I'm not sure about Garrett Cartridges, but at the same time, I wouldn't bet against them either myself. No way. Lots of anecdotal experience there, not just through them, but their customers using their products. Much more experience shooting game all over the planet then most of us here have at Leverguns.

At the end of the day, I think there is more than one solution that can work in all these cases. So no cause for animosity. My personal solution is to reverse engineer things from a "terminal ballistics" standpoint and what do I need, a short, fat wound channel (way over-simplifying things here and not taking into account temporary shock wave and wound channel aka "bouncing ballistic gel") or do I need a longer/thinner pass through wound channel to reach vital organs suitable for buffalo and was exactly what Sharps shooters did with buffalo cartridges decades ago using threshold supersonic/subsonic loads. Your solution may be different than mine, and I prefer more modern bullets as you have seen me post, but not doubting other solutions are out there. Regards, -Tutt
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DocRock
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by DocRock »

No "Like" button mr. Tutt, which would have saved on verbiage from me. I agree.

No animosity on my part. It comes down to matching alloy to velocity and I can see no reason whatsoever for 25 BHN at 1350 fps. I have explained why I can see no such reason but wish no ill towards anyone who disagrees with that or who may think it's the greatest thing since copper jackets. I do think promoting too hard an alloy for a given velocity will lead the unknowing to disappointment. Nevertheless, I can disagree with sensible people without animosity; I am not a Democrat. :mrgreen:
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Grizz
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Grizz »

DocRock wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:09 am No "Like" button mr. Tutt, which would have saved on verbiage from me. I agree.

No animosity on my part. It comes down to matching alloy to velocity and I can see no reason whatsoever for 25 BHN at 1350 fps. I have explained why I can see no such reason but wish no ill towards anyone who disagrees with that or who may think it's the greatest thing since copper jackets. I do think promoting too hard an alloy for a given velocity will lead the unknowing to disappointment. Nevertheless, I can disagree with sensible people without animosity; I am not a Democrat. :mrgreen:
NOTE THAT on Garrett's website he lists a 420gr 45/70 load at 1350fps <18000C I can't comment on this alloy, I suspect it may be softer, but IDK.

below that he lists the 420gr 45/70 load at 1650fps at 28000C and I reckon this in part is to keep the riflinG from stripping the bullet as it exits. it also serves a purpose on the business end of the meplat. But these heavy for caliber gas checked hardcast bullets do not lead bores as long as the rifling isn't damaged. I shoot BTB PileDrivers at velocities ranging from subsonic to 1700-ish, and they DO NOT lead my barrels. Not only that, but they ARE NOT FRANGIBLE. I have tested them mercilessly and that alloy is not frangible, not under a hammer, not shot into firewood, not when shot into water to recover them.

If anyone is interested, there is a massive amount of palaver and actual information concerning the subject. There are experts who are good writers and good documenters, and good researchers, and the net result is always the same. they don't lead and they don't fail on game. big game hunters use them in Africa, they are proven.

Another good line of research concerns the flat meplats. Anyone wonder the why and wherefore of the flat meplat. u2oob university and internet search engines can cough up millions of pages concerning just this topic.

Hasta
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CowboyTutt
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by CowboyTutt »

You go Grizz! Welcome back to the fire! LOL -Tutt
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Grizz
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Re: LEVER GUN AMMO

Post by Grizz »

CowboyTutt wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:40 pm You go Grizz! Welcome back to the fire! LOL -Tutt
Thanks. I'm easily amused I suppose !
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