.38 in .357 lever leading question

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bbling1985
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.38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by bbling1985 »

Hello, i am new to the forum. i decided to join because i am a reloader and just inherited my dads .30-30 and just bought a .357\.38spl henry lever. my main question is regarding the use of .38 cast in the .357 lever.
since the .38 is shorter than the .357, would not a lot of .38 rounds cause early chamber leading or throat erosion or anything in turn making the .357 not chamber correctly? it is very hard to find .357 brass but of course .38 is cheap n easy to find. and then there are the keith rounds to get the 357 power in .38 brass.... is it just best to shoot the .357? even in a revolver i could see it happening in the cylinder. mind you, i do clean my guns regular, but this is just in case info. never dealt with leading issues in my hand guns with cast.
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crs
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by crs »

WRT .38 ammo in .357 rifle:

My M1892 .357 with 20 inch Douglas barrel will not stabilize any .38 ammo other than loads with velocity equal to .357 ammo.

You will need to see what weight and velocity ammo your .357 rifle likes and does not like.

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FWiedner
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by FWiedner »

JMO.

Don't do it. If you have a .357, use .357. If you plan to use .38, dedicate the arm to .38. If you don't want to dedicate your .357 to .38 and plan to use .38, get yourself a .38.

Firing .38 in a .357 will create a permanent ring of unclean-able grime in the throat which will eventually lead to the several other conditions you describe.

As I said. JMO.

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bbling1985
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by bbling1985 »

FWiedner wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:35 pm JMO.

Don't do it. If you have a .357, use .357. If you plan to use .38, dedicate the arm to .38. If you don't want to dedicate your .357 to .38 and plan to use .38, get yourself a .38.

Firing .38 in a .357 will create a permanent ring of unclean-able grime in the throat which will eventually lead to the several other conditions you describe.

As I said. JMO.

:)
this is what i feared would happen. things of that nature. a lot of people probably wouldnt think about it like that, but i want to keep it tip top shape and functional. just more proof that if you try to cheap out/cut corners, there will be consequences. thank you and everyone for yalls time and responses. more input is of course welcome.
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claybob86
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by claybob86 »

Welcome aboard! :)

I also avoid .38s in .357 chambers, same with the .44s for the reasons mentioned above.
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by mickbr »

bbling1985 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:50 pm
FWiedner wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:35 pm JMO.

Don't do it. If you have a .357, use .357. If you plan to use .38, dedicate the arm to .38. If you don't want to dedicate your .357 to .38 and plan to use .38, get yourself a .38.

Firing .38 in a .357 will create a permanent ring of unclean-able grime in the throat which will eventually lead to the several other conditions you describe.

As I said. JMO.

:)
this is what i feared would happen. things of that nature. a lot of people probably wouldnt think about it like that, but i want to keep it tip top shape and functional. just more proof that if you try to cheap out/cut corners, there will be consequences. thank you and everyone for yalls time and responses. more input is of course welcome.
Its not really cutting corners nor dangerous, more depends on whether you don't mind cleaning the gun .A lot of people into cowboy action use 38 special in the 357 lever guns. Usually shooting short ranges but quite a few shoot further with them as well. A good cleaning after firing is all they recommend ifyou want to run both calibres. Also depends what your rifle likes too. Some individual guns don't like feeding the shorter 38 special, some prefer different bullet nose shapes, a lot can be alleviated by just seating the bullets out close to 357 length. If you check in at castboolits.com you will see guys slugging the bore for an exact measurement and casting bullets to match to get the best chance of accuracy. My advice is if you really want to play with 38 special, don't give up before you try it. You might get lucky with an accurate factory plinking load right off. You might find you can tweak bullets and loads to get decent performance. Of course 357 can be loaded down to 38 special levels as well which cuts out the cleaning hassle. Have fun with it
Last edited by mickbr on Fri May 15, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JimT
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by JimT »

The "grime" buildup in the chamber is a combination of lead and "ash" ... by-products of burning nitrocellulose. While it can build up if left, it is not unremoveable. I have taken care of it in 38/357's ... 44 Special/44 Magnums ... 454 Casull/45Colts over many years. If you have a buildup that is not removeable by normal cleaning methods all that is required is a chamber "scraper" to clean out the deposits.

I made my own by using an unsized cartridge, bell-mouthing the case and sharpening the edges. Pushed into the chamber .. sometimes requiring a bit of force .. it scraped out the deposits quite nicely. I have done that in the 3 calibers mentioned above. Keep on top of the cleaning and enjoy the gun!
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mikld
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by mikld »

I shot my first 38 Special in '68 and started reloading for it in '69. I got my first 357 Magnum in '71. I had way more brass, handloads and even some factory ammo in 38 Special than 357 (and at that time was on a very tight budget), so naturally I fired 38 Specials in my 357 Magnum. I reloaded mainly cast lead bullets, many to lower 357 velocities in 38 brass. On occasion I'd shoot 200 hundred rounds and most of the time between 50 and 150, but I clean my guns regularly after each session. The cylinders in my 357 look as clean, shiny and smooth as new. Perhaps if left uncleaned and after a few thousand rounds and sitting in a safe for a year, there may be a crud/carbon/burned powder residue build up, but it certainly isn't impossible to remove.

As for barrel leading (aside from rumors chamber leading) if your bullets fit the gun, they will not lead the barrel. I can only share my experience as there are a lot of old wives tales still floating around about lead bullets. In my 357 Magnum handgun I have fired 125 gr RNFP plain based cast bullets to 1,400 fps, measured. I have fired a 160 gr SWC to approx. 1,300 fps and my 44 Magnum Puma has digested some 240 gr RNFP over near max loads of WC820 for around 1,600-1,700 fps and because the bullets fit the guns there was no barrel leading. I measured the barrels, and sized my BHN 12-13 plain based bullets appropriately...
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OldWin
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by OldWin »

Welcome to the fire!
I find my Rossi 20" .357 just shoots better with a lighter loaded .357 than with .38's.
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by Griff »

AS JimT said, the "ring" from firing a "short" cartridge in a chamber made for the Magnum version is VERY cleanable. I seldom shoot .357s in my Rossi 1892s, and with normal cleaning, after firing several thousand .38 Specials, the .357 chamber just fine. I think the key I've found is to use a very clean burning powder suitable for .38 Specials and use it exclusively. The same with my mdl 65 S&W, it seldom sees a .357, normally shooting .38 Spl +P ammo. Hotter than I normally use in the Rossis, but still a clean burning powder. When I was an active duty Deputy, our practice ammo was made by the jail "trustees"... and the county bought the cheapest powder and the softest bullets available. Leading and powder fouling was a problem. After EVERY practice session I had to clean before I could reload with our duty ammo! And, like I said, it was 38 Special also!

BTW, the cleanest powder I found in the 38 was IMR PB. Too light and it will leave a few unburned granules, but there is a sweet spot that once you find it, it's very clean.
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44shooter
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by 44shooter »

I have never seen an issue and I have shot 38 special in 357, 44 special in 44 mag, 45 Schofield in 45 Colt, 22 cb and short in 22 lr. I suppose if you let fouling buildup it can cause issues, but your rifle has only one chamber to keep clean
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by Bronco »

One of the reasons I just stay with mag cases and down load them if I want, I do not have to readjust the reloading dies. To cheap to buy another set for the shorter ones. :|
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wvfarrier
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by wvfarrier »

Here is the solution i came up with. I shoot handloaded 38s built on magnum cases. Its solves all the issues.
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by Tycer »

I do what JimT does. Actually I think I learned from him. I use the case mouth inside chamfer tool to sharpen the 357 case. I came into a large amount of 38 wad cutters that shoot quite well in my Rossi.
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fordwannabe
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by fordwannabe »

I have a Rossi lever that would not chamber 38’s reliably. I was talking with Nate Kiowa Jones one day and he explained that these guns were made to function with a certain OAL. First I load ALL 357 loads in nickel cases and all 38 in brass cases. I can tell from 4 feet away which load it is. Second I load the 38 cases with bullets extended out to the approximate length of a 38-40 round and it cycles like butta. You said you are a reloader did you think of powder coating your bullets? Quick easy and pretty cheap, plus no leading because the lead is encapsulated in a plastic jacket. I have two of the Lee 6 cavity 358 RNFP molds and can make a pile of 38’s quick powder coat 50 at a time and have loaded thousands. There is a good informational thread about powder coating over on castboolits. If I can help ya out with any of this PM me. Good luck with your endeavors.
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bbling1985
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by bbling1985 »

fordwannabe wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:27 am I have a Rossi lever that would not chamber 38’s reliably. I was talking with Nate Kiowa Jones one day and he explained that these guns were made to function with a certain OAL. First I load ALL 357 loads in nickel cases and all 38 in brass cases. I can tell from 4 feet away which load it is. Second I load the 38 cases with bullets extended out to the approximate length of a 38-40 round and it cycles like butta. You said you are a reloader did you think of powder coating your bullets? Quick easy and pretty cheap, plus no leading because the lead is encapsulated in a plastic jacket. I have two of the Lee 6 cavity 358 RNFP molds and can make a pile of 38’s quick powder coat 50 at a time and have loaded thousands. There is a good informational thread about powder coating over on castboolits. If I can help ya out with any of this PM me. Good luck with your endeavors.
The guy that cast my bullets in oregon has poly coated boolits now. Im fixing to order some of his 180 tc. That should keep the leading down, but was still concerned about the short .38 possibly causing problems to the throat or chamber. People seem to dump out/have a plethora of .38 brass but that .357, especially during these times of covid, is hard to find. At least at a good price. The guy makes the 170 grain keith bullets but is out of stock. I thought that would be a good alternative for a full power load but in the .38 brass; but then again...being the shorter brass n the b4 mentioned concerns. Seems basically double the cleaning almost if using .38 n a .357 chamber is what im gathering.
Also the info on flaring the case and using it to scrape clean, thats a good idea. Powder selection is very limited n with the longer rifle vs my 6 inch, infeel im fixing tondive deep in the blue dot and 2400 i have. I have a little trail boss, but really wanna save it for when my suppressor goes through. I read it fills cases well n makes a good suppressor powder. This new henry is already threaded n gonna be super fun to experiment with.
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by AJMD429 »

I shoot mostly 38 Special 'cowboy' level loads in my Rossi and Marlin leverguns, and have never had any trouble with 357 loads sticking or anything. No special chamber cleaning. Round count is probably under 3,000 for each gun in 38 Special, and 300 for 357 Mag.
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Re: .38 in .357 lever leading question

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

JimT wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:21 am The "grime" buildup in the chamber is a combination of lead and "ash" ... by-products of burning nitrocellulose. While it can build up if left, it is not unremoveable. I have taken care of it in 38/357's ... 44 Special/44 Magnums ... 454 Casull/45Colts over many years. If you have a buildup that is not removeable by normal cleaning methods all that is required is a chamber "scraper" to clean out the deposits.

I made my own by using an unsized cartridge, bell-mouthing the case and sharpening the edges. Pushed into the chamber .. sometimes requiring a bit of force .. it scraped out the deposits quite nicely. I have done that in the 3 calibers mentioned above. Keep on top of the cleaning and enjoy the gun!


Was going to comment but Jim nailed it. Scrape that crud out and you will be just fine.

I will add; throat/chamber erosion with these relatively low pressure cartridges is a minor concern. Particularly with today's better quality barrels. Plus, it seems it is more common with the blistering fast high pressure small bullets. Years ago. a good example, the 25-06 was problematic in that it would erode bores much faster. Not, much of a problem now days.
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