Black powder SAA?

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M. M. Wright
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Black powder SAA?

Post by M. M. Wright »

Ii stop in over at the Colt Forum once in a while and have noticed that those guys seem plumb paranoid about shooting smokeless in guns manufactured during the black powder era. I've been doing it for 70 years or so and haven't blown up anything yet but then I'm pretty cautious. I've an old SAA that was manufactured in 1900 but has a more recent Colt barrel and cylinder in .357 Mag. Now this gun has the cross pin retainer for the base pin but no VP on the trigger guard so it's a black powder gun but I'm gonna load up some 900 fps loads for it and blast away. But then I would never tell you it's OK. It used to be common practice so I'm wondering who else is guilty of this behavior? I remember screwing a Hy Hunter45 ACP barrel and cylinder into my 1881 vintage Colt so I could shoot free ammo while I was stationed at Fort Hood in 1962.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by .45colt »

It's only 120 years old...what could possibly go wrong ?? :shock: I have never had a SAA always Ruger revolvers. with All respect I'd see what Sixgun has to say about it. stay safe.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by JimT »

People been doing it since smokeless powder was available.
... those that understand powders at least a little and ...
Using a little common sense ....
IMG_0036.JPG
This one was made around 1887 if I remember correctly .... shoot nothing but smokeless in it .. the cylinder is a modern smokeless cylinder.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by marlinman93 »

It's not just there, but at several other forums I look at. And it's ANY BP era gun they're paranoid about using smokeless in. One guy mentioned on the ASSRA forum the other day that anyone who shot smokeless in their BP rifle "got what they deserved if it blew up". That's pretty harsh in my opinion, and callous.
I've been shooting nothing but smokeless powder loads in all my old single shot rifles, and 95% of them were made before smokeless even showed up on the market. Been doing so for 40 years+ and not an issue.
As JimT said, those old guns were loaded with smokeless powder as soon as it arrived on the market in the 1890's. It's knowing the limits of the gun, and what powder and load to use. If someone isn't smart enough to figure it out they better stick with BP.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Griff »

Yep! The fact that some idiots have blown up their BP era SAA or rifles notwithstanding, a little uncommon good sense will go a long, long way down the smokeless trail!
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by piller »

As long as the pressure does not go over the safe limit, is should be fine. How many thousand shooters have understood that principle? Going over the safe pressure may not be a problem at first. There were men who pushed the limit. Elmer Keith is the first one who springs to mind. Keeping a .45 Colt to original pressures still gives a pretty decent power level in a pistol. If you need more, go for something intended for more.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Sixgun »

What Jim T and Marlinman says......they both mentioned "knowing your powders".....100% agree.........

While none of us are ballisticians and I don't think anyone here has the proper pressure testing tools you can still get a decent idea what pressures are by reading a lot, especially the area in manuals concerning pressure that most of us tend to skip....read it...absorb it!

Black powder has pressures...it has to to in order to push that hot lead to your desired destination.

You ever notice how gun magazines say, "before shooting your old gun have it inspected by a competent gunsmith". Well, that's written for most people who don't read the part in manuals about pressure along with people who just don't have the experience or "eye" to examine a gun for obvious faults.....like an old shotgun barrel rusting through from the inside, a cylinder in a revolver that won't line up with the barrel that will shoot some of the bullet down the side of ththe barrel, any gun that does not lock up tight, a safety that does not work, bulged chambers, obstructions...you get it.....

Like Marlinman and Jim T, I too, have been shooting black powder guns with smokeless and I only blew up one gun! Jim T remembers that one...hey Jim,,remember the 1886 in 45-90 some 15 or more years ago?....that's a long story and it was part my fault from my younger days (my early twenties) when I used to push full loads of smokeless out of the black powder '86. Blackpowder single action Colts, S&W New Model 3's, Colt Lightnings (revolver & rifles) Remington Keenes, early 73's and 86's...the list goes on and on the guns I have and do regularly shoot with smokeless, many with many thousands of rounds from play and competition.

Some powders have fast and sometimes unpredictable huge pressure spikes with only a few tenths extra of powder...like SR 4756....scary stuff in my experience.....the fast powders like Bullseye and unique can go from mid range to super upper range with only a grain or two extra........Like my mentor Jim T and Marlinman say, "know your powders".

MM knows what he's doing....keeping his loads sensible in the old Colts and Colts that have cylinders and barrels replaced....

Guns are machines like anything else.....if you don't know it and then you beat it, your gonna eat steel.....my arm still has pieces of that old '86 imbedded in it....---6

Dang! That '86 blow up was 17 years ago......bought it in '74 for $400....

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Last edited by Sixgun on Mon May 11, 2020 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Old Savage »

Was it 5744?
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by JimT »

Sixgun wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:16 pm Jim T remembers that one...hey Jim,,remember the 1886 in 45-90 some 15 or more years ago?....that's a long story and it was part my fault from my younger days (my early twenties) when I used to push full loads of smokeless out of the black powder '86.
Yessir. I do remember that one. Somewhere I MAY have a copy of the article I wrote on Sixgunner on blowups. I included the piece you wrote about the rifle.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Sixgun »

Old Savage wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:34 pm Was it 5744?
Yes..36 grains and a 325 grain gas check..........the problem came from the seventies when I used to shoot 58 grains of 3031 with a 400 grain Speer jacketed......you know, young and dumb....fatigued the metal........that 3031 load was in an old Lyman manual and next to it was ""for nickel steel barrels" .......I figured it was nickel steel.......---6
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by J Miller »

JimT wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:45 pm
Sixgun wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:16 pm Jim T remembers that one...hey Jim,,remember the 1886 in 45-90 some 15 or more years ago?....that's a long story and it was part my fault from my younger days (my early twenties) when I used to push full loads of smokeless out of the black powder '86.
Yessir. I do remember that one. Somewhere I MAY have a copy of the article I wrote on Sixgunner on blowups. I included the piece you wrote about the rifle.
Here you go. Just happened to have it bookmarked.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by JimT »

THANKS JOE!

Yep .. that's the one!
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by marlinman93 »

Those who need a gun new enough to have an owner's manual and a factory warning in that manual, or stamped on the gun should be OK. But they might also stay clear of loading smokeless in old BP guns, since none of those guns come with owner's manuals, or warnings.
There are a vast array of smokeless powders that can be safely loaded in our BP era guns. But there are far more that should never be loaded in them! And beyond what powders are safe, we add to it what techniques are safe for smokeless in old guns. There are powders that work fine in reduced charges, and others that are dangerous reduced too far. There are also smokeless powders that don't play well with wads or certain fillers, so you need to know which they are, or just don't use wads or fillers at all; which is what I choose to do. I refuse to use any smokeless powder with wads or fillers. At the least they can cause a ringed chamber, and in the worse case scenario they can blow up a gun!
I've pretty much narrowed down my list of which powders I'll use in my BP era handguns and rifles to maybe 5 powders. I know there are others out there these days that I could also use, but I'm not interested in adding more powders to my choices as I'm already knee deep in powder, and no room to add any new ones.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by piller »

It seems to all point to knowing what you are working with. Remember the old Warner Brothers Loony Toons cartoon where Sylvester was trying to load a black powder gun. He kept getting it wrong. Some people are like that.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by JRD »

Dang Six,
I remember seeing those 1886 pictures years ago. I never realized it was someone I now “know” (at least from the internet).

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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Sixgun »

Howdy Jason...yea...big learning experience for me......fool with anything long enough in life your bound to hit all the "ups and downs". 17 years ago and I can still see that "blinding white light". :D ---6
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by .45colt »

Here We Go ,....................... I have loaded the .45 colt for more than 35 years . Always in Ruger revolvers. I'm prolly getting senile but what is YOUR THOUGHTS on shooting a replica SAA 45 Colt with Keith's Load. ???? I have wanted to do it since I first read Sixguns around 1972. I sure wouldn't want to bust up an original. Thank You.
18.5 grains of 2400 under the Lyman/Keith 265 grain slug.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by JimT »

.45colt wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:45 pm Here We Go ,....................... I have loaded the .45 colt for more than 35 years . Always in Ruger revolvers. I'm prolly getting senile but what is YOUR THOUGHTS on shooting a replica SAA 45 Colt with Keith's Load. ???? I have wanted to do it since I first read Sixguns around 1972. I sure wouldn't want to bust up an original. Thank You.
18.5 grains of 2400 under the Lyman/Keith 265 grain slug.
I shot those loads in Uberti's BUT that is not saying anyone else should. :)
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Sixgun »

Like Jim says..."in his guns".....personally I don't see an issue with a limited amount.....18.5 of 2400 with a heavy Keith....If I was shooting that load out of a modern single action replica I would not be worried but......I sure wouldn't make a habit of it....those Italian guns, especially the early ones, will shoot loose with a steady diet.....the gun won't blow as they are proofed for roughly twice of a factory load.

I've shot a fair amount of 265 gr. Keith's and 10 grains of Unique out of a Colt New Service double action.....it was potent and kicked like crazy......as I've aged I much prefer 6 grains of Bullseye or 7.5 of 231.

Hey 45 Colt....you and I got started about the same time...I first read "Sixguns" in '73 and still read it.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by .45colt »

I still read it too Six. the slip cover on it is pretty torn up. :)
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by J Miller »

18.5 grs of 2400 under a 260 - 265gr SWC is actually Keith's light load put together in balloon head cases and used in late black powder or early smokeless Colts. When the solid head cases came out he upped it to 20.0 grs 2400, and when Ruger brought out their big Blackhawk he upped it to 22.0 grs.

When I had my 1973 vintage, Uberti made, Iver Johnson's imported Cattleman rebuilt by Nate Kiowa Jones we discussed using the light Keith load in it. His opinion at that time was that it was safe to do so, but not as a steady diet. In this case, I agree with him JimT and Sixgun and wont put a consistent diet of that load through anything but my large frame Blackhawk.

For normal shooting I use 7.1grs 231, or 8.5grs to 9.0grs Unique with most any 250 -255 gr lead bullet.
My favorite moderate load is 9.0 grs Unique under a 265 gr Keith bullet.

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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by buckeyeshooter »

nothing wrong with using Goex. I even use it in modern guns for cowboy shooting.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by OldWin »

I don't "shop around" much in .45. I've always used 8.0gr. Unique behind the old Lyman 454190 in my circa 1910 Colt.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

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The question always comes to me when I see people talking about pushing ANY old cartridge to maximum levels....WHY? Just because Elmer Keith experimented with hot loads doesn't mean we should all run out and push our guns (old or new) to maximum, and even above maximum levels. They don't do much more (if any more) than loads slightly lower will do. And likely when cartridges are pushed to max levels they tend to not group as well, or shoot as accurately.
I prefer to stop when my groups are the tightest they can be. If they begin to open up, I don't care of I'm at 50% of max levels, or 75% of max levels. I'll always take accuracy over max velocity and pressure.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

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marlinman93 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 5:45 pmI prefer to stop when my groups are the tightest they can be. If they begin to open up, I don't care of I'm at 50% of max levels, or 75% of max levels. I'll always take accuracy over max velocity and pressure.
Aye, that's my rule also. :D
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

OldWin wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:05 pm I don't "shop around" much in .45. I've always used 8.0gr. Unique behind the old Lyman 454190 in my circa 1910 Colt.
Yes, you can shoot this load in any gun in reasonable condition and the performance is pretty good.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Sixgun »

Black powder cartridge guns are generally in the 1870-1900 period.....during those 30 years a lot of new technology, heat treating and purification of steel/iron went through a myriad of changes. I would not use 8 grains of Unique in 1870's-to about the mid 1880's period.,,,especially the 1870's. I'd would use Herco and at 6.5 grains. Herco is slightly slower than unique. Unique is Bullseye with a retarder on it and therefore can be and is a fast powder with a sharp increase in pressure.

And then it depends on the gun built during those black powder years......a black powder 1886 Winchester or a Hi-Wall can be safely used with decent charges of smokeless than say a single action Colt or a top break Smith.

I've shot cavalry Colts from the 1870's time frame and stayed with black and 200 gr. bullets.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by JimT »

I would agree Sixgun. My old Colt was made in 1887. I did not trust the cylinder and since the gun was being rebuilt, I replaced it with a 3rd Generation cylinder. I do not shoot hot loads in it. The heaviest loads I've shot are black powder. My smokeless loads for it are around 800 to 850 fps.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

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Yea Jim....we learn here things ....if we pay attention. :D The Merwin & Hulbert in my sig.line is in near perfect condition and chambered for the 44-40 made in 1887 + or - a year. I shoot it on occasion and it gets 6.5 gr. of Herco and a 200 grain bullet.

No progressive machines for this ammo....each one in a tray and visually inspected then the bullet seated. Then I take it an extra step and weigh each round and it had better be within one grain up or down.

But you know, we've been there and done all that....just passing on the info for the young heads.

Hey, that single action Colt you recylindered....is that the cylinder I sold you many years ago?...Man! I had a ton of those old Colt cylinders, barrels, bactstraps etc...dang near gave them away. They were in a box at the factory and they had cosmetic blemishes that I couldn't see......my buddy calls me and asks if I want a box of junk from the factory.......still have a 38-40 barrel with no rifling and a buntline barrel that's unthreaded that I believe is a first gen and is also smoothbored.---006

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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by Oldncrusty »

This is a great read. Thanks for bringing it back
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Re: Black powder SAA?

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Sixgun wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:23 pm Hey, that single action Colt you recylindered....is that the cylinder I sold you many years ago?]
Yessir it is. Works like it was made for it. It took me a bit of time fitting it but I got it right. Sometimes you get lucky. :D
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Re: Black powder SAA?

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JimT wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:26 pm
Sixgun wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:23 pm Hey, that single action Colt you recylindered....is that the cylinder I sold you many years ago?]
Yessir it is. Works like it was made for it. It took me a bit of time fitting it but I got it right. Sometimes you get lucky. :D
Like Taffin, you robbed me! I think it was something like $30-40 Well, that's what I was asking. I remember you put up a list of what I had and that list sold most of it. Thanks...20 years later! You also put up a picture of my granddaughter when she was a baby...She's now 22. Time sure flies when your having fun.---006. Think I bought the whole box for $400.
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by JimT »

Sixgun ... here is what I wrote back then about fitting that cylinder:

.... one day I received an email from a reader of sixgunner.com. He has some Colt Single Action parts...was I interested? Always!!! We corresponded a bit and in a few days a package showed up at the door containing a new Colt SAA .45 cylinder.

Now, this was a Third Generation cylinder. They are a bit different than the First and Second Generation cylinders. The early ones have a removable cylinder bushing that runs full-length of the cylinder. The 3rd Generation ones have only a factory-fitted short bushing in the front end of the cylinder. I did not know if the new cylinder would fit the old gun or not.. what else might they have changed over the years?

The first thing I did was measure the cylinder. Overall it was the same size as the "Christy" cylinder that was in the gun. The length from the cylinder face (on the breech end) to the face of the ratchet (on the recoil-shield end) was longer by .015" than the one that was installed already. Other measurements showed me that this new cylinder should work if I could get everything fitted. The length from the cylinder face to the front of the bushing was a bit shorter. This told me that if I could remove metal from the ratchet the barrel/cylinder gap would be tight. And it also told me I did not want to take any metal off the bushing!

The gun had always had a little extra headspace and removing metal from the ratchet would help tighten that up if I watched what I was doing. So.....I assembled my machine shop which consists of several sharp files, some jewelers files, my micrometer and my Browne & Sharpe dial caliper.

Using the dial caliper and taking it slow I took .012" off the face of the ratchet. I cleaned off the filings and tried it in the gun. Too tight, it would not go in. Working by "try and fit" I removed a bit more, tried it again, etc. until it slipped into the frame. However I was unable to get the cylinder pin in. It still was too tight. A little more was removed and the cylinder slipped in freely. But it would not rotate freely. An examination showed it was dragging on the rear of the barrel just at the bottom of the barrel. 

Checking the distances I decided not to remove any more metal from the ratchet, so I lightly touched the barrel with the file and removed a small amount. Two or three tries and it was perfect! The cylinder spun free on the Belt Mountain base pin, with no dragging or fore and aft movement.

The next step was to clean up the ratchet. Using the jeweler's files I removed the boogers left from the file work I had done, plus some that had been left by the factory. Then I tried it in the pistol. The bolt dropped into the locking notch at the same time the hammer locked at full-cock. And it was tight. I polished the ratchet faces a bit more and then cleaned everything and put it back together. It felt like a new gun!

On the range it functioned perfectly. I shot some full-power blackpowder loads through it as well as my standard load. It consists of 6 gr. of 700X under the Lyman #454190 255 gr. roundnose bullet. These shoot very well, hit just above Point-Of-Aim and are easy on the gun. I ran about 100 rounds through the gun and then took it back to clean it and look it over.

The new cylinder is .452" in the throats. The largest is .4524" and the smallest .4521" - not enough difference to hardly measure. All I have left to do to it is to shape the edges of the cylinder like the old Colts and de-blue it. I will de-blue the Belt Mountain base pin at the same time so that everything matches up as far as looks. And what is neat is that I now have an 1880's Colt SAA with a 1990's Colt cylinder. The best of both worlds!
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Re: Black powder SAA?

Post by buckeyeshooter »

I go the other way. I have 44 magnum vaqueros that have had new cylinders machined in 44-40 with .429 throats and I load them with a 200 grain cast over 35 grains of Goex FF for 840 fps out of 4 5/8 barrels. If I had a black powder colt, I would probably use the same load.
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