45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

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bcraig
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45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by bcraig »

I have never Had a 45 Colt but decided I wanted one so I have an EMF GW II Gunfighter 45 Colt with 45 Acp Cylinder that should be here within a week or so.

So I see the Manufactures are saying it is okay to shoot 45 ACP ammo that is Saami rated At 21,000 Pressure
But the 45 Colt is supposed to be held to Saami 14,000 Pressure

Now I am no Rocket Scientist but seems to me Like the 45 Colt can Safely be taken to Higher than the Saami 14,000 Pressure Limit without battering anything on the Revolver if it is safe with a 21,000 Pressure 45 ACP load !!

What are yalls thoughts on the discrepancy between the 45 Long Colt and 45 ACP Pressure limits ?
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Blaine
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by Blaine »

One reason is that 45 Colt ammo can and will be used in rattletrap antique shooters that would not be safe with higher pressures. Modern revolvers chambered in 45 Colt, like Ruger, can be loaded up to .44 Mag levels...
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bcraig
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by bcraig »

Blaine wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:39 pm One reason is that 45 Colt ammo can and will be used in rattletrap antique shooters that would not be safe with higher pressures. Modern revolvers chambered in 45 Colt, like Ruger, can be loaded up to .44 Mag levels...
I can understand that BUT that is not what I am talking about. I am Referring to an EMF GW II in Particular and Not a Ruger Blackhawk which is a stronger than the EMF.

In general it is a given that a ratty old beat up Colt would not be as Strong as a New Ruger Blackhawk .

The question is how can the 45 ACP with a Saami Pressure of 21,000 be safe to fired from the same revolver that is only rated to fire 45 Colt at a Sammi Pressure of 14,000 for the 45 Colt ?

Obviously with My EMF GW II 45 Colt with Factory supplied 45 ACP extra Cylinder ,the factory considers the Revolver to be safe with the 45 acp Cylinder or they would not include the ACP cylinder.

So it stands to reason that this Particular revolver using the 45 Colt cylinder should be able to take higher
pressures than 14000,Right ?

Yet A lot of People say that the Clones should be held to Sammi Pressure specs of 14,000.

The saami drawing for 45 Colt cases shows a .480 straight case while the 45 ACP case is Tapered from .476 at the base to .473 at the neck.
So does the intial .004 smaller base of the 45 ACP make the difference ? Is that enough to allow 7,000 more PSI ?
Keeping in mind that the tapered case of the ACP increases the Backthrust of the 45 ACP case over the 45 colt .



In the end My thoughts are if your revolver is ok with a 45 ACP Cylinder then it should be ok with Higher than Sammi specs for the 45 Colt from the same Revolver.
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by 44shooter »

Short answer is yes, your revolver can handle 45 Colt loads at 21k psi just like it can with ACP loads. The manufacturer or importer is not going to say that because such ammo is not to SAMMI standards. You can do it without a failure. Not sure if you might loosen the gun up more quickly if you did this with heavy bullets regularly
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DocRock
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by DocRock »

The pressure vessel in a revolver is the cylinder. The manufacturer, presumably one of the Italians, proofs the cylinders under CIP protocol. The 45 LC cylinder will have been proofed under CIP to 16,000 psi (as opposed to SAAMI 14kpsi) and the 45ACP cylinder will have been proofed to CIP 19,000 psi (vs SAAMI 23,000 psi). There should be CIP proof marks on the cylinders. It is unwise to take advice from strangers on the internet assuring your safety should you exceed the levels warranted by the manufacturer and proofed under the relevant regulatory authority.

The frame will handle the pressures of either load.
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by piller »

I am guessing that your gun can and would handle up to 21,000 with the .45 Colt rounds. Not being an Engineer or any other sort of person who would actually know, I am just guessing. If it were mine, I would probably not go above about 17,000. That is just because I like to push things a little and that is a modern gun. In an older Colt or clone, there is no way I would push it. I am not recommending anything for you to do beyond what the manufacturer says. I can only say what I might do. Sort of like asking me to diagnose a medical issue. No, I am not trained to be able to do that and give you any sort of good answer.

Never forget, pushing the limits of metal may be safe for a long time, but it may suddenly give up and cause a serious injury. Steel does not always show signs of imminent failure.
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bcraig
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by bcraig »

DocRock wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:04 pm The pressure vessel in a revolver is the cylinder. The manufacturer, presumably one of the Italians, proofs the cylinders under CIP protocol. The 45 LC cylinder will have been proofed under CIP to 16,000 psi (as opposed to SAAMI 14kpsi) and the 45ACP cylinder will have been proofed to CIP 19,000 psi (vs SAAMI 23,000 psi). There should be CIP proof marks on the cylinders. It is unwise to take advice from strangers on the internet assuring your safety should you exceed the levels warranted by the manufacturer and proofed under the relevant regulatory authority.

The frame will handle the pressures of either load.
Hi
When I get the revolver will the cylinders actually be marked with the pressure that it was tested at ? or will it just indicate that they have been tested and assume I know what they were tested at ?

Of course the chances that the cylinders are made from a different steel or heat treated differently are slim to none regardless of what load they tested with wouldn,t you say ?

What you say about taking advice from strangers on the Internet has a Lot of merit.
That being said you do realize that you are a stranger on the Internet to me as well !! :)

Thanks Craig
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DocRock
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by DocRock »

bcraig wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:59 pm
DocRock wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:04 pm The pressure vessel in a revolver is the cylinder. The manufacturer, presumably one of the Italians, proofs the cylinders under CIP protocol. The 45 LC cylinder will have been proofed under CIP to 16,000 psi (as opposed to SAAMI 14kpsi) and the 45ACP cylinder will have been proofed to CIP 19,000 psi (vs SAAMI 23,000 psi). There should be CIP proof marks on the cylinders. It is unwise to take advice from strangers on the internet assuring your safety should you exceed the levels warranted by the manufacturer and proofed under the relevant regulatory authority.

The frame will handle the pressures of either load.
Hi
When I get the revolver will the cylinders actually be marked with the pressure that it was tested at ? or will it just indicate that they have been tested and assume I know what they were tested at ?

Of course the chances that the cylinders are made from a different steel or heat treated differently are slim to none regardless of what load they tested with wouldn,t you say ?

What you say about taking advice from strangers on the Internet has a Lot of merit.
That being said you do realize that you are a stranger on the Internet to me as well !! :)

Thanks Craig
Indeed! But I am not offering advice, merely noting that the Italian manufacturers operate under the CIP and proof accordingly. The CIP proof protocols are published, as are their Max Pressures, provided above. While we cannot know how the cylinders differ in terms of manufacturing and treatment, we can know that they have been proofed and rated for the pressures referenced above. The cylinders should bear an Italian nitro proof mark to show that they have been proofed in accordance with CIP pressures for each cartridge.

My only advice is to stick with the pressures that your firearm has been proofed for.
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by bcraig »

DocRock wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:37 pm
bcraig wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:59 pm
DocRock wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:04 pm The pressure vessel in a revolver is the cylinder. The manufacturer, presumably one of the Italians, proofs the cylinders under CIP protocol. The 45 LC cylinder will have been proofed under CIP to 16,000 psi (as opposed to SAAMI 14kpsi) and the 45ACP cylinder will have been proofed to CIP 19,000 psi (vs SAAMI 23,000 psi). There should be CIP proof marks on the cylinders. It is unwise to take advice from strangers on the internet assuring your safety should you exceed the levels warranted by the manufacturer and proofed under the relevant regulatory authority.

The frame will handle the pressures of either load.
Hi
When I get the revolver will the cylinders actually be marked with the pressure that it was tested at ? or will it just indicate that they have been tested and assume I know what they were tested at ?

Of course the chances that the cylinders are made from a different steel or heat treated differently are slim to none regardless of what load they tested with wouldn,t you say ?

What you say about taking advice from strangers on the Internet has a Lot of merit.
That being said you do realize that you are a stranger on the Internet to me as well !! :)

Thanks Craig
Indeed! But I am not offering advice, merely noting that the Italian manufacturers operate under the CIP and proof accordingly. The CIP proof protocols are published, as are their Max Pressures, provided above. While we cannot know how the cylinders differ in terms of manufacturing and treatment, we can know that they have been proofed and rated for the pressures referenced above. The cylinders should bear an Italian nitro proof mark to show that they have been proofed in accordance with CIP pressures for each cartridge.

My only advice is to stick with the pressures that your firearm has been proofed for.
Well Doc, The statement that it is "unwise "to take advice from strangers on the Internet is "in a way" of advising me not to take their advice ,and in a practical way I believe that you were telling me to pay more attention to what the factory says than others ,which is good advice but advice nonetheless .Semantics ,LOL

You don't know me and I don't know you but I was merely making an obviously weak attempt at being Humerous.
As I am now. :lol:

It is sound advice for sure.

Thanks
Craig
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by 44shooter »

Your premise is correct though. Same diameter cylinder made from the same manufacturer from the same steel with the same diameter holes drilled in it. Logic says the two cylinders are the same strength regardless of lack of industry proof or recommendation.

You don't see Ruger endorsing non SAMMI loads in Redhawks, Blackhawks, original Vaqueros etc either, or handloads of any kind for that matter. Yet Hornady and Speer publish loads enhanced 45 Colt loads for these guns and a few others. The shooting industry widely recognizes this as a safe practice, but Ruger doesn't ok it. Enhanced 44 Special loads are commonly used in SAAs too without manufacturer endorsement.

I would not hesitate to fire 45 Colt loads that i knew were 14k-21k in a modern SAA or clone, or a S&W N frame. I would shoot 45 Super in my 45 ACP N frame at 23k on a limited basis.

I not telling anyone what to do with their gun or their own safety. I'm not one to push a gun or cartridge to the limit. I will say stay away from "Ruger only" loads in your gun. You may find standard 45 Colt to be plenty in any case
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by Old Savage »

Any of you that professionally deal with lawyers should easily understand this issue.
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Re: 45 Acp SAAMi 21,000 But 45 Colt only Saami 14,000,?

Post by Nath »

Old Savage wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:34 pm Any of you that professionally deal with lawyers should easily understand this issue.
+1
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