Can anyone help me with this?

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Mike S.
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Location: Minnesota

Can anyone help me with this?

Post by Mike S. »

Hello all, this is a bit off the beaten path, but still levergun related.

In my area of Minnesota, deer hunting is limited to either shotguns with slugs, or handguns of minimum caliber/cartridge length. My proposal is why not allow rifles that shoot handgun calibers for deer hunting. I emailed our DNR with my idea, but got no response. I emailed our supposedly pro-gun/hunting representative, but it doesn't look like I'll get any support from him.

Here is a copy of the email I've been sending.

Greetings Rep. Cornish,

I have an idea for a rules change for allowable firearms in the
'shotgun
only' areas of the state.

Presently, only shotguns and handguns of certain calibers are allowed
in
most of the Southern deer hunting zones. My suggestion is - how
about
allowing the use of pistol-caliber rifles in these areas also. I am
referring mainly to traditional straight-walled hangun calibers such
as
45 Colt, .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, etc. These are all presently legal
to
use in a handgun for deer, why not be able to use them in a rifle as
well?
This could be easily enforced by specifically listing the calibers
allowed
and/or by placing a minimum/maximum cartridge length. It is ironic to
me
that presently I can hunt with a .270 Winchester hangun, but I can't
use
my .45 Colt carbine.

I would like to know what you think of my proposal, and if there is
anything you can do to help me with it. If you think this is something
we
could do, I could come up with whatever ballistic/firearms data would
be
needed.

I am resident of district 27B, but knowing you are a great advocate of
hunting/firearms rights and are on the game & fish committee, I decided
to
contact you as well as my own representative. I have emailed the DNR
with
my suggestion, but never received any response.

Thanks for considering this matter.

Sincerely,
Mike

This is the reply I received from an evidently stubborn and ignorant individual.




Hi Mike,

I wouldn't be a good one to ask. I don't think they should have started
allowing a lot of these calibers before the ones you mention. I think
they are too weak already.

We could argue about this for hours and compare ballistics and
coefficients and such, but it wouldn't change my mind. I wish it would
have stayed the way it was or just open it up to everything including
ball bats. There's so many exceptions now, its confusing.

Best of luck to you though and I wouldn't fight it, I just won't fight
for it.

Tony


Am I going about this the right way? I am not very familiar with how to go about changing government rules & regs. Would I be better off trying to get support from an organization, such as the Minn. Deer Hunters Association or the like?

Anyways, thanks for any advice any of ya might have for me.

Mike
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Griff
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Post by Griff »

I don't recall if the rules change for Indiana finally passed to allow them to use leveractions in such calibers. Your idea about the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association is a good one. Or other outdoor organizations. It may also help to show how other states allow their use.
Griff,
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Post by KirkD »

I've discussed similar action in Ontario. First, do not email; write a letter ... hard copy is taken more seriously. You need to find out who makes the game laws. In our case, it is MNR, not the government legislature. Second, you need to find out several people who make these sorts of decisions and cc all of them. Third, Griff's suggestion is a very good one .... formal correspondance from large organizations carry more weight than your one letter. Fourth, follow up your letter with phone calls to the appropriate people. Finally, prepare for a can of worms. If new game laws are drafted, some calibers that were formerly legal (i.e. 270 Thompson Contender) will become illegal and there will be people screaming. I ran into that kind of opposition myself and I'm no fan of banning calibers or cartridges unless there is a very, very good reason to do so, that actually makes solid sense (real solid sense). Finally, put a lot of thought into your proposal, because if changes are made, it will be a long time before any further changes are considered. For example, what about black powder levergun cartridges? How can black powder levergun cartridges be identified (paper patch, teflon patch?), etc. Go ahead and don't let people discourage you, but make sure it is well thought out ... I would recommend that you get thoughts from others as well ... they may think of things you didn't. Form a committee and formalize it, ... adds impact to your letter if it is on a club, or organization letterhead.
Mike S.
Levergunner 1.0
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by Mike S. »

Thanks for the replies guys. I may have jumped into this in the wrong manner. To me, it's a no-brainer, but it may take some consideration on the parts of others to make any changes.

The 10mm auto is the one exception to the current minimum handgun cartridge length. From what I understand, this was the result of one individual contacting a state representative with his idea for a proposed change.

Actually, I have also contacted another legislator (a female democrat of all people) who has some interest in considering my idea.

I did get another email back from the representative that I posted the reply from. His take is that a .44 magnum is too weak for deer because he took four shots to drop a bear with one. Oh well.

Mike

Mike
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Old Ironsights
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Indiana's Pistol Caliber Carbine Rule

Post by Old Ironsights »

The Rule Change is 99% passed. We will know for sure after the meeting on May 22 to finalize the 2007 Regulation book.

Mike: here is the Indiana DNR's proposed rule change. I would suggest forwarding it to the MN DNR.

SECTION 1. 312 IAC 9-3-3 IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS:

312 IAC 9-3-3 Hunting deer by firearms
Authority: IC 14-22-2-6
Affected: IC 14-22-11-1; IC 14-22-12-1; IC 35-47-2

Sec. 3. (a) This section is supplemental to section 2 of this rule and governs the activities of an individual who is either:
(1) issued a license to hunt deer by firearms under IC 14-22-12-1(a) (12), IC 14-22-12-1(13) , or IC 14-22-12-1(a) (15), or IC 14-22-12-1(16) during the season established in subsection (b); or
(2) issued a license to hunt deer by a muzzle loading gun or muzzle loading handgun under IC 14-22-12-1(a)(13) or IC 14-22-12-1(a)(16) during the season established in subsection (c); or
(3) issued a lifetime license under IC 14-22-12-7 prior to July 1, 2005 during the seasons established in 312 IAC 9-3-3(b) and (c); or
(4) issued a youth yearly consolidated hunting license under IC 14-22-12-1(a)(24); or
(2) (5) hunting by the use of firearms under IC 14-22-11-1.

(b) The season for hunting deer with firearms is as follows:
(1) The firearms season using:
(A) shotgun;
(B) shotgun with rifled barrel;
(C) handgun;
(D) muzzle loading gun; or
(E) muzzle loading handgun; or
(F) rifle, with the use of cartridges described in subsection (f) (4) only;
is from the first Saturday after November 11 and continues for an additional fifteen (15) days.
(2) The seasonal limit for hunting deer under this subsection is one (1) antlered deer.

(c) In addition to the season established under subsection (b), the season for using a muzzle loading gun or muzzle loading handgun only:
(1) extends from the first Saturday after the firearms season established under subsection (b); and
(2) continues for fifteen (15) additional days.
The seasonal limit for hunting deer under this extended season is one (1) deer of either sex.

(d) A person must not hunt deer except from one-half (½) hour before sunrise to one-half (½) hour after sunset.
(e) A person must not do the following:
(1) Hunt deer unless that person wears hunter orange.
(2) Possess bow and arrows while hunting under this section.
(f) The following requirements apply to the use of firearms under this section:
(1) A shotgun:
(A) must have a gauge 10, 12, 16, 20, or .410 bore loaded with a single projectile; and
(B) may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if there are no shells in the chamber or magazine.
(2) A handgun must:
(A) conform to the requirements of IC 35-47-2;
(B) have a barrel at least four (4) inches long; and
(C) fire a bullet of two hundred forty-three thousandths (.243) inch diameter or larger.
All 38 special ammunition is prohibited. The handgun cartridge case, without bullet, must be at least one and sixteen-hundredths (1.16) inches long. A handgun must not be concealed. Full metal jacketed bullets are unlawful. A handgun may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if there are no shells in the chamber or magazine. All 25/20, 32/20, 30 carbine, and 38 special ammunition is prohibited.
(3) A muzzle loading gun must be .44 caliber or larger, loaded with a bullet at least three hundred fifty-seven thousandths (.357) inch or larger. A muzzle loading handgun must be single shot, .50 caliber or larger, loaded with bullets at least .44 caliber and have a barrel at least twelve (12) inches long. The length of a muzzle loading handgun barrel is determined by measuring from the base of the breech plug, excluding tangs and other projections, to the end of the barrel, including the muzzle crown. A muzzle loading gun must be capable of being loaded only from the muzzle, including both powder and bullet. A muzzle loading gun may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if:
(A) for percussion firearms, the cap or primer is removed from the nipple or primer adapter; or
(B) for flintlock firearms, the pan is not primed.
(4) A rifle must:
(A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.
(4) (5) Over-and-under combination rifle-shotguns are prohibited.
(Natural Resources Commission; 312 IAC 9-3-3; filed May 12, 1997, 10:00 a.m.: 20 IR 2703; filed Nov 13, 1997, 12:09 p.m.: 21 IR 1272; filed Dec 26, 2001, 2:40 p.m.: 25 IR 1530; readopted filed Jul 28, 2003, 12:00 p.m.: 27 IR 286; filed Sep 23, 2004, 3:00 p.m.: 28 IR 538)

----------------

As for the guy who thinks a .44 isn't enough for deer, all you need to do is show him direrct ballistic comparisons between the .44 out of a rifle & a Slug. Winchester has that on their ammo site, and Hornady has a ballistic calculator that can generate load equivilents.

.44 mag....240gr...1760mv.....-17.1" at 200yds
45/70........300gr...1810mv.....-13.8" at 200yds
.410..........1/4oz....1800mv.....-19.3 at 200yds
12ga.........385gr....1900mv.....-13.7 at 200yds

There are tons of debates about this, along with lots of good data from the "pro" side (none from the "antis") here: http://tinyurl.com/yr4ffe and in the archives in general.
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Old Ironsights
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Post by Old Ironsights »

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/about/rules.html

Administrative Rule (Regulation) Changes

RIFLE PROPOSAL

The public comment period for the proposal to allow rifles with pistol cartridges is now over. At this time, the Natural Resources Commission (NRC) and DNR are reviewing all of the public comments. A report of all of the public comments received, as well as a response by the DNR, will be posted on our website after May 1.

The Natural Resources Commission will vote on this proposal to allow rifles with pistol cartridges at their meeting on May 22. If the NRC gives final approval to the proposal, it will be in effect for this year’s deer firearms season.

The proposed language reads:

The rifle cartridge must:
fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.


Some cartridges that would be legal include the following:
.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-.40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W
This administrative rule proposal, as well as several others, can be viewed at the link below:

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/about/wi ... ules06.pdf
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
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