OT - (Virginia School Campus)Gun bill gets shot down

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don Tomás
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OT - (Virginia School Campus)Gun bill gets shot down

Post by don Tomás »

Very sad what happened at Virginia Tech today. All it would have taken was one legally armed citizen to put an early end to the carnage. Checkout this quote from article:

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Feel safe??? How about BE safe?? Sorry, just so PO'ed at what happened and the probable backlash at the legal gunowners.
Tom

===============================================
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.

By Greg Esposito
381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658[/i]


MORE INFO:
Virginia Tech's Ban on Guns May Draw Legal Fire (Article From 2 Years Ago)

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 | Kevin Miller


BLACKSBURG - Virginia Tech's recent action against a student caught carrying a gun to class could draw unwanted attention from groups already angry about firearms restrictions on public college campuses.

University officials confirmed that, earlier this semester, campus police approached a student found to be carrying a concealed handgun to class. The unnamed student was not charged with any crimes because he holds a state-issued permit allowing him to carry a concealed gun. But the student could face disciplinary action from the university for violating its policy prohibiting "unauthorized possession, storage or control" of firearms on campus.

Tech spokesman Larry Hincker declined to release the student's name or specifics of the incident, citing rules protecting student confidentiality. But Hincker said Tech's ban on guns dates back several decades.

Students who violate the school policy could be called before the university's internal judicial affairs system, which has wide discretion in handing down penalties ranging from a reprimand to expulsion.

"I think it's fair to say that we believe guns don't belong in the classroom," Hincker said. "In an academic environment, we believe you should be free from fear."

Most public colleges in Virginia ban or restrict guns on campus. But the root of that authority is murky, according to some observers.

Virginia law already prohibits students or visitors from carrying guns onto the grounds of public and private K-12 schools. The state also prohibits concealed weapons in courthouses, places of worship during a service, jails and on any private property where the owner has posted a "no guns" notice. State employees are barred from possessing guns while at work unless needed for their job.

But Virginia code is silent on guns and public colleges. And two bills seeking to give college governing boards the authority to regulate firearms on campus died in committee during this year's General Assembly session.

David Briggman, a resident of Keezletown in Rockingham County, has made it his personal mission to challenge state colleges' authority to enact tougher gun restrictions than the state.

Briggman, who is a former police officer, said he forced Blue Ridge Community College to allow him to carry a gun onto campus while a student. And he sued James Madison University over its ban on concealed weapons even among permit holders. While JMU's policy still stands, Briggman said he has been told by campus police officials that they will not arrest visitors who carry a gun legally.

"It's extremely easy to challenge university policy by looking at ... whether they are given the statutory authority to regulate firearms on campus, and of course, they're not," Briggman said Tuesday.

Hincker, meanwhile, said it is not unusual for colleges to have more restrictive policies than the state. As an example, Hincker said certain chemicals and explosives that are legal on the outside are prohibited in the classroom or in dormitories for safety reasons.

"We think we have the right to adhere to and enforce that policy because, in the end, we think it's a common-sense policy for the protection of students, staff and faculty as well as guests and visitors," Hincker said.

Virginia Tech also has the backing of the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police. In a policy position paper dated April 1, association executive director Dana Schrad wrote that the presence of guns on college campuses "adds a dangerous element to an environment in which alcohol is a compounding factor." Students should not have to be concerned about guns on campus, Schrad wrote.

"The excellent reputation of Virginia's colleges and universities depends in part on the public's belief that they are sending their college-age children to safe environments," the policy paper reads.

At least one attorney who represents college students would like to see the concealed-carry permit issue clarified.

John Robertson, the Student Legal Services attorney at Tech, said he's heard differing interpretations of the policy at Tech. Robertson, whose position is funded through the Student Government Association's budget, does not represent students in disputes with the university but offers free legal advice and services to students on civil and criminal matters.

Robertson said he would like to see either a court or the state Attorney General's Office resolve the matter. As for a university's refusal to honor a concealed-carry permit, Robertson added: "I am dubious that one particular arm of the state can do so without a particular statute."

Hincker acknowledged that the concealed guns issue had "never been tested" and that the university could be opening itself up to legal action.

"But we stand by the policy unequivocally," Hincker said.
Last edited by don Tomás on Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Hobie »

We will be working to turn this back on the school admin.
Sincerely,

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Post by don Tomás »

Hobie wrote:We will be working to turn this back on the school admin.
Good luck, Hobie, for all of us. Seems banning guns from campus didn't work very well...
Tom
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Post by Hobie »

As noted it was legal but a student could be expelled or faculty fired. The bill would have prohibited such actions against LEGAL carriers.

No, it didn't work. I've heard a rumor that it was a full-auto gun as well. We don't know now but we will soon.
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Post by KirkD »

I would like to see Virginia Tech hit with a mind-staggering lawsuit by the victims' families for making it an offense to protect themselves. If some students had been able to exercise their 2nd ammendment right, a lot fewer people might have been killed.
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Post by mad mucus »

:evil: Man! SH*T like this.....

Cost legal gun owners in Oz semi-auto rifles, handguns limited to .38cal & 10 mag cap, minimum barrel lengths, AND gave crims a helping hand in the process.

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Post by cnjarvis »

As disgusting as this is and as upset as I am about the likely backlash against law-abiding gun owners, I can't help but feel for those we lost, the survivors and their families. Let's remember them in our prayers.

I agree, a CCW holder might have been able to do something.
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Post by mad mucus »

Imagine the power that freak felt knowing he had all the firepower and a helpless mob at his mercy...

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Post by Griff »

mad mucus wrote:Imagine the power that freak felt knowing he had all the firepower and a helpless mob at his mercy...
I can't; but, can imagine having him in my cross-hairs. :oops:
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Post by Hobie »

Now reporting it was two semi-auto 9mm pistols.
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Post by Woodtroll »

Another sad part about this is that the local paper (The Roanoke Times) is already trying to shrug off the gun control aspect. I tried to post a message on their "Round Table" message board, and got a reply back that "This message is being held for approval". Imagine that! Now, they're posting a message that:

"Editorial Board
Given the magnatude of the tragedy, this is not the time for a gun debate. That discussion might be appropriate down the road, but not today. We are therefore closing the discussion on this thread.

Thank you for participating. Check back at the RT for future opportunities to discuss the many issues surrounding the horrible events at Virginia Tech today."

It doesn't surprise me that a liberal newspaper has jack-donkey staff that can't even spell ("magnatude"?!). I may not be able to spell perfectly, but then I don't play newspaper man, either. If you'll remember some of the discussion a couple months back, this is also the same paper that thought it was a good idea to post the names and addresses of all CCW holders in the state on their website.

Y'all please pray for these folks, and for the Tech Chief of Police. He really is a very decent guy, but I'm afraid that dealing with these shark reporters will take a toll on him. Sure has been a rough year in these mountains; lots of un-mountain-like behavior going on these days.

Y'all take care, thanks for thinking of us. Regan
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Post by Leverdude »

Aint much left to say except it stinks. :?

Anybody have a link to the school shooting the principal went to his car, got his gun & stopped the jerk? I have a couple places that story may do some good.
I forget which one it was.
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Re: OT - (Virginia School Campus)Gun bill gets shot down

Post by otteray »

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.
Well now, that sure didn't work so well.
My heart and prayers go out to the wounded and dead student's families.
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Post by KirkD »

I reiterate my suggestion that a class action lawsuit be launched against Virginia Tech either on behalf of some of the victims' families, or on behalf of those students who want the right to protect themselves in any future shooting. A massive lawsuit does get the attention of a University like few other things do. This does not just have to be against Virginia Tech, but any university that takes away a student's right to protect herself/himself against a gunman.
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Post by smoke'um »

What idiot would NOT shut the entire campus (regardless of the number of students) completely when he had just witnessed two dead bodies and the shooter was still on the loose? The President of VT may be academically sound but he is common sense STUPID. The (the University) didn’t even tell the student body or facility there had been a shooting much less two killing, they only told them “there had been an unfortunate incident occur). How utterly STUPID can one be?

I, for one, would advocate the firing of the College President AND the Campus Police Chief (who didn’t have a clue).

Smoke'um
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Post by Woodtroll »

Smoke'um, as the old saying goes, don't be too quick to believe what you read or hear in the media. I assure you that much of what is being aired is off-base or just flat-out in error.

I think folks hear what a small town Blacksburg is, and imagine the college as just a few quaint stone buildings. As someone who has walked MILES across that campus over several years working on my BS and MS degrees in Forestry and Wildlife Management, and even more through the town, I can assure you that it is anything but a small, neat cluster. The campus itself is huge, with hundreds of buildings, not including the outlying business and research facilities. There is no way to communicate with 20,000 people instantaneously, considering some are walking to class, driving in to school or work, or (at that time of the morning) asleep- these are college kids, after all. The idea of cell phone messaging has been addressed by "experts"- do you have any idea of how fast a list of cell phone numbers for these kids would become obsolete?

Another way to look at this- would your hometown go into total lockdown due to a domestic homicide? If this seems absurd to you, you're starting to get the picture. The folks involved made the best decision they could with the information they had at the time. As an emergency services worker who was involved on the fringes of this disaster, I can tell you that even with all the hindsight and finger pointing today, I cannot see how they could have effectively shut down the campus and secured the students in time, even if they had had reason to (which I don't believe they did at the time).

I repeat the statement that Chief of Police Flinchum is a good man with a large heart, and lots of experience and knowledge. He may appear a country bumpkin on national TV, as most of us that grew up here in these mountains probably appear to outsiders, but in his shoes I would have done the same thing. Additionally, the investigating agencies, both state and federal, have so far supported and commended the actions of the campus and Blacksburg police.

That being said, I DO take exception to the administration of the University that has opposed CCW on campus since it became an issue several years ago,and I think they should be held responsible for the failure of their "very effective policy" (in the words of spokesman Larry Hincker).

Ramblings, I suppose, from a tired man- I hope you grasp the points I'm trying to make from my close-up perspective.

Take care, folks, remember these folks in your prayers, please. Regan
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Post by smoke'um »

Woodtroll.

I understand your point; however, I think you speak from the heart and not from the facts.

• Fact: Two killings occurred at approximately 7:15am. One has to believe the Campus police and administration were notified with in minutes.
• Fact: the killer is running loose on campus (assumption but at best running loose.)
• Fact: The administration thinking this was an isolated incident; choose not to tell the facts to some 9000 students on campus that a double killing had just occurred. Mind you they have no idea where the killer or killers are.
• Fact: The killer exercised more intelligence than the President or Chief in that he at least tried to secure the building that he last entered. Something the President & Chief should have done immediately.

This is not media hype (and I agree with you 100% on that subject) these are statements from creditable witness that have just see the most awful carnage in the history of the Country.

Your point is well taken on the cell phone contact; however, one can only believe the administration has phone communications with each room or at least each wing of every 100+ buildings. They had two hours to tell people what was going on. All 100 buildings should have been locked down by 7:30AM.

Your school is a top ranked engineering school you would think some of the facility or graduate students would invest some time in designing and implementing an effective warning or alert system. I won’t comment on your “locking down the whole townâ€
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Post by AmBraCol »

smoke'um, I believe YOU are the one speaking from the heart and not from the facts.

Yes. There was a double homicide. BUT there was NO indication that this was NOT an isolated event, nor was there any indication that the killer had remained in the area. To lock down ANY community of over 20,000 people because of a double homicide is ludicrous. It would accomplish NOTHING in the vast majority of cases other than to throw a whole day into disarray and mess up schedules. In most cases that's ALL it would accomplish, with no positive side benefits.

The administration's fault is that NO ONE on campus was allowed the right to self defense. NO ONE was allowed to carry a weapon to defend their own and others' lives. THAT'S the bone we should pick with everyone in a position of authority anywhere in our land that would deny us the right to at least fight for our lives with something other than fingernails.
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Post by smoke'um »

Sir,

Please point out ONE fact I alluded to that is not absolute!

I never thought I would be at odds with a fellow gun enthusiast over “The Right to Bear Armsâ€
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Post by Woodtroll »

Smoke'um, the best I can say is that your expectations are completely out of line for the university as it exists at this point. I will not argue that there SHOULD be some kind of communication or warning system, but the fact is that there is none in existence at this point. It's hard to use something that doesn't exist. There are typically no siren warning systems in our local towns, like most towns have out west; we don't have the frequent severe weather emergencies here that y'all do in Wyoming. I'm pretty sure the main fire house in town doesn't even still use its alert siren anymore.

I can only tell you so much about the situation, but what I am telling you is already on the news. The original call was not for a shooting, but was dispatched as a domestic injury, common enough in college dorms. The university rescue squad is staffed by student volunteers, and I would expect at that time of the morning it would take them a few minutes to respond and arrive. Another few minutes to get to the shooting floor, and quite a few minutes to figure out exactly what happened. Believe it or not, I have been on several calls that were not immediately obvious as shootings. Remember that these are young college kids responding, many with limited experience. Then the campus police would have been notified, and some time would have elapsed while they did a quick investigation to figure out exactly what was going on. Remember that patient treatment is being carried out, police are packing into a crammed room, and everyone is confused at this point.... I hope you start to get the picture. The dorm involved WAS locked down almost immediately as soon as it was determined that there had been a shooting. There's just no way that a campus lockdown, even if warranted, was going to happen by 07:30, or maybe even 08:00. Remember too that the shooter was now believed to be back in his dorm room (based on facts established MUCH later); don't you think if locked down inside his dorm he could have carried out his plans among the students in the dorm almost as easily?

I'm honestly not trying to argue with you- we are both on the same side here. My main point is that it is hard to judge actions of others from halfway across the country, and this is certainly not improved by a media that wants to be first to report a tidbit without checking facts. I EXPECT folks to be upset and angry- this was a horrible thing that happened. However, I think that the cries for firings and lawsuits are premature, and my opinion is supported by the State Police, FBI, and ATF agents that were/ are actually ON THE SCENE! I agree that deficiencies certainly exist, and hopefully we can learn from those. I still have little hope for correcting the biggest one- that students are reprimanded or dismissed for legally carrying concealed weapons. I just don't think the fancy-pants imports that run the place will "get it" even now. I find myself wondering what would have happened had the shooter tried the stunt in one of the agricultural or forestry buildings...

Like you, I am angry and frustrated. Most of the families in surrounding counties here have someone attending, or more likely, employed at Tech; there are connections everywhere. I'd like to see things change, but I think the most important means of doing this is not by criticizing the actions of the Tech and Blacksburg PDs, but by concentrating on changing the administrative policies that helped this happen.

I honestly appreciate you caring enough to reply, and everyone here appreciates the support received from all over the nation. I just hope that something positive can be raised from the ashes.

Thanks for your patience, Regan
Last edited by Woodtroll on Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by smoke'um »

Regan,

I appreciate your observation and comments. Maybe we can agree to disagree on the procedures and efficiency of the Administration and Campus Police.

I’ve said too much already.

Best regards and my condolences for the tragedy at your Alma Mater.

Smoke’um
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Post by Woodtroll »

Thanks, Smoke'um. There is certainly no love lost between myself and the Tech administration, for numerous reasons <G>. In fact, I left there just months shy of a Master's because I couldn't stomach the politics and policies of the imported leaders of the University. That's fine, it led me into the fire service, where I'm a fire lieutenant and paramedic in a neighboring county, a job I truly love. And I'm not sure any PD in the country, with the exception of maybe some of the large cities, are truly prepared for something like this. I just think these guys (again, the PDs I'm talking about) were caught in a crack with no promising way out, and did the best they could. Lots of the silliness and cowering behind cover y'all were seeing were not the campus or Blacksburg cops, but the county deputies (brown uniforms)- another story all in itself.

I appreciate your discussion and civility. I'm through, too.

Y'all take care, Regan
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Post by mad mucus »

Gents,

May I give a viewpoint from the outside looking in, feel free to correct...

As I understand the situation of the campus layout, it is an open plan with full access to local citizens, making it just another section of the community. Also the dorms being 5 minutes walk away from the facilty itself, make the first shooting scenario an isolated incident on a domestic level.

To lock down the facility would have only isolated one section of town. What's saying the gunman, with documented psyc problems and a preset plan(more than likely including a plan-B) wouldn't have gone to the local malls or hangouts of the university populas, placing children into the scene, for his lead spray session... ala Martin Bryant style in Port Arthur, Tasmania, also killing 32. :shock:

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Post by AmBraCol »

smoke'um wrote:Sir,

Please point out ONE fact I alluded to that is not absolute!

Respectfully, Smoke'um
Sir, you said
• Fact: The killer exercised more intelligence than the President or Chief in that he at least tried to secure the building that he last entered. Something the President & Chief should have done immediately.
In fact, they DID lock down the dorm where this shooting took place immediately. There was no reason at the time to suspect that there would be a reason to lock down the entire campus. There was nothing to indicate at that moment that in a short while "all hell would break loose". To lock down 20,000 people on a 2,600 acre facility because of a killing in one of the dorms is not reasonable under normal circumstances.

If you want to talk dumb statements then analyze how many murders take place on a daily basis. Mass killings like what took place on Monday are not common place. If our country starts shutting down entire communities each time there is a murder we'll never be able to function again.

You do not seem to grasp the layout of the campus at V-T. There was no way to predict that Cho would start shooting somewhere else. The vast majority of murderers would be long gone. You are using hind sight to attempt to crucify folks for something that seems obvious now.

Should the campus try to stay up to date with available technology? Of course. Do you realize how expensive it is? I get regular letters from my Alma Mater asking for contributions for various renovation and technology related expenses. It's a relatively small school, but many items run in the 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars - just to try and keep current. And the way the world works (as unfortunate as that may be) is that the barn door never gets locked until the horse is gone.

I still maintain that the grounds for an administration change should be the gross negligence which lead them to forbid properly trained citizens from carrying weapons of self protection on their campus. They should be held liable for the loss of life. There is no right to take away the means of self defense. And if you DO remove the means of self defense you MUST be ready to answer for any harm done on your watch.
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Post by Leverdude »

The only thing the school did wrong was let them folks get killed. Nothing more nothing less. If they allowed them to protect themselves they'd have no culpability. Once they disarmed them they took responsability for their saftey & let them get killed. I think theyre directly responsible. Theyd sure accept praise if the school was violence free.
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Post by AmBraCol »

Leverdude wrote:The only thing the school did wrong was let them folks get killed. Nothing more nothing less. If they allowed them to protect themselves they'd have no culpability. Once they disarmed them they took responsability for their saftey & let them get killed. I think theyre directly responsible. Theyd sure accept praise if the school was violence free.
Exactly. They disarmed the populace - they MUST be held responsible. If they allowed people to be armed then it's up to each individual to provide for their own safety.

It is time that folks started using our legal system for a good purpose. Hold any one who denies you your right to self defense guilty for any harm that comes to you because you were not allowed the means to defend yourself.
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Post by smoke'um »

Thanks for you comments. It appears you and I will always remain at odds over the issue so I will withhold any further comments. I can only hope you are wrong.

Respectfully, Smoke’um
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Post by AmBraCol »

smoke'um wrote:Thanks for you comments. It appears you and I will always remain at odds over the issue so I will withhold any further comments. I can only hope you are wrong.

Respectfully, Smoke’um
And I can only hope that no one starts shutting down the whole country each time there is a murder. Not only that but that people will start to realize they need to take responsibility for themselves and their own safety - not rely on the obviously clueless "powers that be". "Gun free zones" should be places where they are handing out surplus weapons to those who have none - not places where criminals are guaranteed hordes of helpless victims.
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Post by smoke'um »

Brilliant!
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Post by KirkD »

AmBraCol wrote:I still maintain that the grounds for an administration change should be the gross negligence which lead them to forbid properly trained citizens from carrying weapons of self protection on their campus. They should be held liable for the loss of life. There is no right to take away the means of self defense. And if you DO remove the means of self defense you MUST be ready to answer for any harm done on your watch.
Spot on!
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Post by Griff »

KirkD wrote:
AmBraCol wrote:I still maintain that the grounds for an administration change should be the gross negligence which lead them to forbid properly trained citizens from carrying weapons of self protection on their campus. They should be held liable for the loss of life. There is no right to take away the means of self defense. And if you DO remove the means of self defense you MUST be ready to answer for any harm done on your watch.
Spot on!
+1

As for crucifying the Administration for the nature of their response, such would be tantamount to creating a vacuum in leadership. For what fool would desire to be held criminally liable in the wealth of knowledge gained with hindsight and the leisurely picking apart of their actions in the aftermath. The act of finding out the identity and whereabouts of a perpetrator should have remained the primary focus of the police. Quarantining the entire school's population is an unwarranted act when no evidence existed @ 7:15am that a madman was loose. Lacking the threat or notice that a more widespread mayhem was about to be loosed on the college I feel the Chief and Administration acted with appropriate restraint and cognizance of the citizenery's right to free movement.

Smok'um, I feel you are unrealistic in your expectations of safety. Locking down that school would be akin to sealing off the city of Cheyenne. A task I fear even the National Guard of WY is incapable of doing on 30 minutes notice, let alone the city police or ?
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Post by smoke'um »

Smok'um, I feel you are unrealistic in your expectations of safety. Locking down that school would be akin to sealing off the city of Cheyenne. A task I fear even the National Guard of WY is incapable of doing on 30 minutes notice, let alone the city police or ?
Okay, you guys think my opinion is sooooo wrong; maybe you would like to tell it to NASA, who effectively shut down over 100 buildings with approximately 10-15,000 workers today in a similar situation. Then began releasing each building one by one as the threat diminished. This situation ended just as the VT incident could have.

Sorry but I don't follow your logic of preventive maintenance. Why should one have to choose between safety and incontinence?

Respectively, Smoke'um (No more, I promise)
Last edited by smoke'um on Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by AmBraCol »

smoke'um wrote:
Smok'um, I feel you are unrealistic in your expectations of safety. Locking down that school would be akin to sealing off the city of Cheyenne. A task I fear even the National Guard of WY is incapable of doing on 30 minutes notice, let alone the city police or ?
Okay, you guys think my opinion is sooooo wrong; tell it to NASA, who effectively shut down over 100 buildings with approximately 10-15,000 workers. Then began releasing each building one by one as the threat diminished.

Respectively, Smoke'um (No more, I promise)

Completely different situation from what happened at Virginia Tech. Apples and oranges. NASA - "man with a gun somewhere around" report. V-T - "domestic violence - shooter probably gone" Two different cases, two different responses. And you'd better believe that NASA has been thinking about responses to terroristic type things and how to respond. Meanwhile, back at V-T and the rest of academia - they live in an ivory tower protected by their decree "No guns allowed". Two different scenarios, two different responses, two different results.
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Post by Griff »

Don't get me wrong, your idea is valid in a closed environment such as NASA. The only two NASA facilities I've visited have gates and guards at every entry/exit. It's not an area that is a mixed use, i.e. both public and private buildings and roadways. NASA's facilities are more like a military base than any public college I've ever had the pleasure of visiting or attending. Some institutions are very closed and easily quarantined, while others, and what I know of VA Tech is it falls in this type, are better described as very open facilities.

Even my alma mater of Long Beach State has expanded to the point that only certain portions are amenable to such closure. And that only with a huge effort and importation of manpower.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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