45 colt revolver vs carbine

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don1911
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45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by don1911 »

Does anyone know of any articles on 45 colt comparing revolver to carbine? Especially using Ruger only loads. Ballistics? Velocity? Pressure? Thinking about adding 45 colt carbine to compliment my Blackhawk in 45 colt.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Pete44ru »

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A .45 Blackhawk (not a smaller frame "New Blackhawk" flattop or "New Vaquero") will easily handle the same loads that a .45 Winchester/Rossi/etc Model 92, Winchester M-94, and/or a Marlin 94 can handle - the longer-barreled rifle should give slightly better ballistics than the same load in the handgun, due to more complete combustion in the longer bbl.

I would suggest developing loads for the Blackhawk, then find out if the best Blackhawk load will work/feed/zero in the rifle.


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Buck Elliott
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Buck Elliott »

"Ruger-only" loads should give you an additional 250 - 400 fps from a carbine barrel, depending on bullet weight and powder used.. Slower powders and higher pressures will yield the greatest increases.

My experience involved heavier-weight bullets, from 250 to 350 grains. I felt no need for bantam-weight bullets in that caliber..

My every-day .45 Colt load is a 250 grain hard-cast slug over a stiff dose of H-4198 for use in my Uberti single actions and '73 Winchester clone..
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JohndeFresno
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by JohndeFresno »

I did some similar research for the same reasons. What I took away from it all is that there can be problems with some .45 Colt loads functioning reliably through a levergun. So taking a tip from Pete44ru, if you first figure out a good load for the levergun, it should work well for the handgun, but not necessarily vice-versa.

However, one of our Leverguns regulars owns Steve's Gunz ( http://www.stevesgunz.com/ ), and he is expert on working over leverguns, especially the Rossi '92 actions.

It seems to me that there is a higher compatibility, out of the box, with .44 Mag's in a revolver/carbine load. But if you have just the .45 Colt or are particularly leaning that way, you will want to choose your levergun carefully, and/or be prepared for a competent gunsmith like Steve Young ("Nate Kiowa Jones" on this site) to work over your piece.
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Sarge
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Sarge »

5 1/2" Vaquero and Rossi 92, 16" barrel:

Image

250 grain Hornady XTP over 13.0 grains of Hodgdons HS6. From the rifle it averaged about 1205 fps; it did about 1050 from the 5 1/2" Ruger. Recoil is inconsequential from either gun. Penetration in water was 24" from both guns.

Image

My factory duplication load of a 250 RNFP over 7.2 of W231 at goes about 100 fps faster from the stubby 92, for 950 fps.
John Linebaugh's 'working load' (Ruger only) of 13.0 of HS6 and a 255 SWC at scooted about 150 fps faster, for 1232 fps.
I have one load I won't print here that propels a 335 SWC 1364 fps from the Rossi's 16 1/8” barrel, without straining anything. I would expect a wound profile in game not unlike the old Trapdoor carbine load.

With any of the loads mentioned, it's pretty hard to miss melon sized targets at 100 paces. If you might need to shoot game between 50 and 125 or so yards, the carbine comes into its own.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Griff »

With experts like Buck and Nate right here, we don't need no stickin' articles!! :P :P I do a LOT of 45Colt shooting; with handguns and rifles, from the 1860 Uberti to 2 1873 clones, an 1885 copy, an 1892 Rossi and a Marlin 1894. Although I only have Colt SAAs and clones, no Rugers, I still keep a few 45Colt +P rounds around for the 1892 and 1885 single shot.

While most of my shooting is cowboy action, my main interest is light bullets goin' slow. But, every once in a while one feels the need for speed!

However, please not that most rifles have some generous chambers compared to their revolver counterpart. This is in order to facilitate feeding thru the mechanical means of a carrier; either one that changes the attitude of the cartridge or one that simply lifts straight up, in the case of the toggle link actions. But, those generous chambers can lead to premature brass failure thru overworking of the brass when loaded to the rifle's full potential. I haven't found more than 150 fps difference between my 4-¾" Colts and the shortest of my carbines (actually a short rifle, a 16-½" Marlin 1894).

A sample of standard Colt loadings from a variety of rifles:
Image

Note that a longer barrel doesn't necessarily have a increase in velocity.
Last edited by Griff on Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cas
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by cas »

don1911 wrote:Does anyone know of any articles on 45 colt comparing revolver to carbine?

I believe the prevailing theory is that when the man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with the revolver is a dead man. :wink:

Image


And if that doesn't help. :D Try: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45colt.html
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don1911
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by don1911 »

I have a Rossi 92 in 357. Now, I love it. When I first got it it would not cycle. Used kit from Steve's guns. It's awesome now. Now warranty over and Lost a screw. Rossi won't sell me one. They want me to return gun. They must really want to force that labor cost on me. So, I doubt I would ever be willing to buy another Rossi firearm again. Leaning towards Marlin. Costs more. But in this case I'd say I'll get what I pay for.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Griff »

don1911 wrote:I have a Rossi 92 in 357. Now, I love it. When I first got it it would not cycle. Used kit from Steve's guns. It's awesome now. Now warranty over and Lost a screw. Rossi won't sell me one. They want me to return gun. They must really want to force that labor cost on me. So, I doubt I would ever be willing to buy another Rossi firearm again. Leaning towards Marlin. Costs more. But in this case I'd say I'll get what I pay for.
Have you contacted Steve about the screw you need?
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by don1911 »

I just sent message to Stevs on his site. Maybe he has screw. I think I asked him about a year ago. But I'm not sure about that. Thanks.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Griff »

don1911 wrote:I just sent message to Stevs on his site. Maybe he has screw. I think I asked him about a year ago. But I'm not sure about that. Thanks.
Surprisingly, I found that the EMF/Rossi 1892 Short Rifle is maybe the most accurate of my Colt rifles. It's the one that shot the 3 groups I had on my thread "Who's the Winner". And with another round, between it and my Browning 1885 single shot:

Image
It's the one with the top 3 shot group on the two large targets. Same load, 11.9 grains of Blue Dot over a 260 grain round flat nose sized at .456 that Malamute sent me to try. I'd actually expected to see a one hole group out of the single shot. As it has proven to be quite accurate with other loads. These weren't really "bench rest" groups, I just leaned the elbows on the table and shot. Maybe I'd better get the sand bags out and make sure there isn't some of "me" wobblin' around in any resulting groups.

Now I'm going to have to shoot some more groups with each of them to either prove this, or disprove it.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by JohndeFresno »

GREAT posts.

Excellent data and graphics proofs, Griff and Sarge.

Thanks to all; very interesting.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

In both my Linebaugh Ruger and the Rossi carbine, I had to increase the diameter of the 270 SAA bullet [Montana Bullet Works] to .454 in order to get them to operate like they should. I had leading problems in both guns. But the .454 bullets seem to seal the gasses behind each and accuracy really turned on.

13 gr of HS-6 seems to be a great load for both guns and the 270SAA feeds fine from the 92 but is too long to feed in my Winchester 66. This is a happy coincidence that should keep me out of trouble. (I think that load it too much for a toggle lever action like the 1866).

The thing that tipped me off was that Hornady makes a cowboy bullet that is oversized and it shoots accurately and clean in all three guns over 8.5 gr of Unique.

Remington used to make a swaged oversized bullet that I really liked, but you cannot get it anymore.
Last edited by Scott Tschirhart on Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Old Savage »

My Rossi also does better with larger bullets. Real world velocities with a 360 gr cast SWC: 1100 fps from a 5 1/2" Ruger 45 Colt, 1350 fps with the same load from a 20" Rossi 92.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by COSteve »

Griff's .45 Colt data above is using cowboy action level: light bullet, slow velocity loads. My .45 Colt chrono data below is with a more standard .45 Colt load: Unique powder standard pressure, 14,000psi loads and 255grn Elmer Keith style lead bullets.

All chrono'd data generated using the same .45 Colt ammo loaded as follows: 9.1grns of Unique (9.5grn max for 250grn lead bullet), Winchester LP primers, and 255grn lead bullets in Starline brass.
  • Uberti SAA Cattleman pistol w/5½" barrel: 914fps average for 10 shots measured at 18ft from muzzle.
  • Uberti '66 Yellowboy Carbine w/19" barrel: 1,163fps average for 10 shots measured at 16ft from muzzle.
  • Uberti '73 Special Sporting Rifle w/24¼" barrel: 1,209fps average for 10 shots measured at 16ft from muzzle.
As you can see, even with just a standard level load of regular pistol powder, the 19" carbine produced 249fps faster velocities and the 24¼" rifle produced 295fps faster velocities than the 5½" pistol with all using the same ammo.

If one were to produce Ruger level loads for use in a stronger actioned rifle like the Rossi, the velocity differences would be significantly higher as one would be using magnum pistol powders. For completeness, my data was generated at 6,100ft asl on a sunny 87° day.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by Larkbill »

Concur on the Rossi bullet size. I struggled to get decent accuracy from mine. Finally slugged the barrel. Oops. .453.

.454 bullets solved the problem.
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Re: 45 colt revolver vs carbine

Post by vancelw »

My +P+ loads (PMC 45HA) using 300gr Hornady XTP Mag bullets gets 1250 fps out of a 5.5" Vaquero and 1400 fps out of a 24" Winchester 1892.
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