This Time I'm Disappointed In The NRA

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:06 am

:roll

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06 ... o-extreme/

I thought open carry was already legal in Texas.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:26 am

They don't know how to keep the train on the tracks. Disappoints me too.
What part of "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" , don't they understand??

The writer knew he/she was on bad ground because they didn't sign the article.

http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/artic ... -role.aspx

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:28 am

On private property, it is, but in public it is not exactly. Unfortunately, just as with many other places, the inner cities vote with their hands out or in your pocket, and that prevents some of the more egalitarian legislation from being passed. I like Texas, but there is not a perfect State in this life. At least in Texas we have enough people who are grown-ups to counter the votes of the handout voters.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:33 am

I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:36 am

What exactly is Texas law??

http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=304

"Summary:
Texas is not a traditional open carry state. They also do not allow open carry, or even printing, by those who have a concealed carry permit."...........

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:39 am

TedH, I do agree with most of what you have to say. I would like to be able to go from the hunt to get gas or something like that without necessarily taking off my handgun. As far as walking around with a rifle slung on your shoulder, well, I don't want to do that. I agree that it would probably hurt our cause. At least at this time.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:55 am

TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

I use to think along those lines also. But I changed about 20 years ago because I see the writing on the wall, how far we have come away from this Right. The opposition has been chipping away at it in Increments for generations now, and the Bill of Rights is loosing. Get used to seeing them, let it go. Believe in in-alienable Rights, and not everything needing to be regulated and controlled by lawyers/politicians/bureaucrats.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:57 am

Hard to keep the money machine going if you actually draw a line in the sand and say "NO MORE". Call me what you will, but I think our money is more important to the leadership at the NRA than our uninfringed rights.

Chris

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:01 pm

As to the Open Carriers, if it's legal people better get used to it. If it's not...don't do it. Civil Disobedience is not free from LE action.
The NRA statement, instead of being a reasonably thought out blurb, was just an emotional bleat unworthy of conservatives

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:02 pm

TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

I agree......word for word. Yes, I am pretty far to the right, but carrying AR's into a coffee shop is like hollaring "FIRE" in a crowded place, which our first ammen. rights are supposed to protect.

This will only lead to weirdos carrying loaded Barrett 50's and letting off a round, intentional or not, and setting us back 25 years.......especially if a Dem is in office when it happens.--------6

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:06 pm

Sixgun wrote:
TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

I agree......word for word. Yes, I am pretty far to the right, but carrying AR's into a coffee shop is like hollaring "FIRE" in a crowded place, which our first ammen. rights are supposed to protect.

This will only lead to weirdos carrying loaded Barrett 50's and letting off a round, intentional or not, and setting us back 25 years.......especially if a Dem is in office when it happens.--------6

Or, more likely in these days of Socialist Gov. Lies and Deceit, an agent provocateur will pop one off killing somebody

(personally I think this has happened......Kent State, for one

)

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:13 pm

Centennial wrote:I use to think along those lines also. But I changed about 20 years ago because I see the writing on the wall, how far we have come away from this Right. The opposition has been chipping away at it in Increments for generations now, and the Bill of Rights is loosing. Get used to seeing them, let it go. Believe in in-alienable Rights, and not everything needing to be regulated and controlled by lawyers/politicians/bureaucrats.

Seems like there are more CCW states now than ever before. Around here it is far far easier to get a CCW permit than ever before. There are more guns owned by private citizens than ever before, and there are private citizens with guns than ever before. Rifle ranges are more crowded and memberships to shooting clubs are now so high that there are waiting lists at many of them around me. There is a huge cottage industry teaching gun handling/training skills. Gun companies are churning out more guns than ever before as well. Esp. the "evil" black ones and small ones. Each of us probably has several multiples more firearms than our fathers and grandfathers. Right now, the fastest growing high school sport in my state is trap shooting and over a million targets were shot last year alone, when a decade ago, there were effectively zero such teams at that level. Both Boys and Girls are coming into the high school trap game in droves.

I would have to say that, esp in the last decade, we have many more armed citizens than we have ever had within the last half century.

Our rights may be under fire, but I don't see us losing any ground lately. The evidence is suggests quite the contrary. You might even say this is the second Golden Age of Firearms based on what is actually happening out there on the firing lines, the hunting fields and in the personal protection industry.

PS. if two guys come into a nice restaurant with a couple of ARs over their shoulders, I guarantee, I won't give them a quick glance and write them off as no threat. I'll be assessing my own arms, checking points of cover and best routes to exits.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:14 pm

While their hearts may be in the right place, their activities demonstrate more of HUA level of understanding of how the fence sitters may react. as evidenced by the recent commercial establishment bans. Places that formerly either took no stance or possibly encouraged concealed carry, are more likely to post ban signs due to fear of lost business.

That hurts us in the long run. I agree with the NRA.

Edited: Yeah! What BrentD said! Heck, I do that when I see a "not-quite-concealed" armed guy.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:32 pm

Griff wrote:While their hearts may be in the right place, their activities demonstrate more of HUA level of understanding of how the fence sitters may react. as evidenced by the recent commercial establishment bans. Places that formerly either took no stance or possibly encouraged concealed carry, are more likely to post ban signs due to fear of lost business.

That hurts us in the long run. I agree with the NRA.

Edited: Yeah! What BrentD said! Heck, I do that when I see a "not-quite-concealed" armed guy.

I agree that this sort of prank does not serve us, but I also think that the NRA could have phrased their opinion a whole lot different. That business of "scary" fed right into the arms of the Anti's Plans....Open carry has always been legal in Washington, but it took a group of like-minded citizens getting arrested, and put on the ground, and good legal advice to TRAIN the public and LEOs as to what the law was. I've been known to open carry, but really prefer concealed in town. At my age/condition a couple punks could prolly take my open carried arm away from me if they put their mind to it....

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:48 pm

It's just a lack of wisdom on the part of these people. Living in the moment, not seeing farther down the road. We need to show that gun ownership is a normal part of American life. Walking around main street with an AR on your back is far from normal.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:50 pm

I have to agree with the NRA, these guys are not doing our cause any good at all. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't necessarily mean it is the right thing to do.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:23 pm

TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

+ 1

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:37 pm

So even if this is not mine or your cup of tea, you'll are saying we should go by something else other then the supreme law of the land being our US Constitution's Bill of Rights??
We should distance ourselves from it and go with some contrary, ambiguous, and abstract not exactly written down idea or notion?

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:39 pm

Centennial wrote:So even if this is not mine or your cup of tea, you'll are saying we should go by something else other then the supreme law of the land being our US Constitution's Bill of Rights??
We should distance ourselves from it and go with some contrary, ambiguous, and abstract not exactly written down idea or notion?

I think we should go with not yelling FIRE in a crowded theater.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:48 pm

Okay, I’ll grant if I was in a coffee shop and those two walked in they would get more than a cursory glance. But I don’t see anything to wet your pants over.

Both rifles are slung.

AK pattern rifle has a YELLOW chamber indicator in the OPEN action. (I would be willing to bet the AR does also) It would be nice to see the magazines removed.

They are not dressed like mall ninjas’ / ATF agents at Waco.

Time to drink my coffee.

This is not a problem in Israel. Why should it be a problem here? A few more Boston type bombings or some jihadists on the lose and this will be a common place sight.

Keep in mind that the most dangerous thing most of us do is get into a car and drive some where. When was the last time you worried about dying on the way to the supermarket?

It’s a RIGHT to keep and bear arms not a suggestion.

Chris

wm · Post by wm » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:49 pm

Personally I think the NRA got this one right.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:01 pm

The Constitution is not an excuse for being a jack-butt.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:03 pm

765x53 wrote:The Constitution is not an excuse for being a jack-butt.

+100 Why don't people understand this?

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:08 pm

TTT: Open carry of long guns IS legal in Texas, just not handguns.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:19 pm

Sixgun wrote:
TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

I agree......word for word. Yes, I am pretty far to the right, but carrying AR's into a coffee shop is like hollering "FIRE" in a crowded place, which our first amen. rights are supposed to protect.

This will only lead to weirdo's carrying loaded Barrett 50's and letting off a round, intentional or not, and setting us back 25 years.......especially if a Dem is in office when it happens.--------6

+3, or are we up to 4

Maintain the element of surprise, conceal carry.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:33 pm

BrentD wrote:
765x53 wrote:The Constitution is not an excuse for being a jack-butt.
+100 Why don't people understand this?

Please define "being a Jack-butt".

Is it expressing one's opinion on a political subject?
Is it getting married to the one you love?
Is it allowing women and minorities to vote?
Is it voting for who I want?

The constitution is written in black and white as long as "jack-butt's" keep it that way.

Chris

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:37 pm

TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

California, until recently allowed open carry on your person or vehicle of unloaded weapons, (ammo could be on your person or vehicle but not in the weapon). Activists started showing up in large groups to malls, starbucks, etc, to push for a right they already had. Of course a bunch of soccer moms are going to freak out when a dozen armed people come into a store or restaurant. L.E. was always called and they have to respond to investigate. This led to confrontations and eventually the law was changed and no more open carry of handguns. Not being content with this, large groups again started slinging AR's, AK's and shotguns into malls and shopping centers. The result was no more open carry of rifles either. If they had just used the right reasonably open carry would probably still be allowed. These demonstrators would have been better off with an education campaign first to educate L.E. of their intent prior to just showing up armed in a public place in these times of active shooters. It seems the intent was to antagonize the L.E.O. while recording the incident to get on youtube. Eventually lawsuits were filed. A hunter, recreational shooter, a guy/gal wants to open carry.....those were normal and usually a quick explanation and on your way. A cop would be derelect in his duty to see a guy with a rifle walk into a mall and do nothing. This was a new type of call for most cops because it just didn't happen much, if at all. He or she would later have to read up on it to find out the legalities, after the fact. They can't just call time out and consult a penal code book. Training on handling these situations were then implemented detailing how to handle these incidents as far as officer safety issues, legalities of requesting names, and serial numbers etc., but by then lawmakers abolished the rights and now.....no more open carry in California.

There should have been a better way to get the message across by preparing folks of their intentions.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:42 pm

As was mentioned earlier, open carry of handguns is illegal in Texas, but open carry of long-guns is not, depending on the venue.

As was also mentioned, concealed carry is legal (with a permit) but brandishing and printing is considered an offense.

IMO, this is the detail where "open carry" regulation becomes significant. There have been many otherwise law-abiding citizen who have been abused by law-enforcement when some panty-wetter 'saw' their exposed concealed-carry firearm as they were bending over in the grocery store, or adjusting their clothing, or when it clattered onto the deck while they were on the shidder at a restaurant.

This sort of harassment and micromanagement needs to be attenuated. A chance glimpse of a firearm should not result in the arrest and abuse of a lawful carrier.

As to the Starbucks and Chipotle warriors... We need to exercise and protect our rights, but we need to be judicious, in that we should not resort to terrorizing our neighbors as we do so.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:42 pm

See how divided our camp is.
The lefties camp is not divided, and they are on a rolling offensive making inroads redefining, reining-in, infringing, and removing rights our parents & grandparents had..

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:05 pm

I think we are mostly on the same page here, just stating things a little differently from each other.

Let me see if I can state this in a way most of us can agree on.

The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States protects the basic human right to both own and carry arms for any lawful reason (and this does not mean governments can limit those reasons by creating restrictive laws).

I will fight for the right of almost anyone to both own and carry any type of firearm concealed or openly.

We are in a fight for these rights against enemies within and without our nation who will use any possible tactic to destroy the basic liberties upon which our republic was founded.

In this fight, we should be smarter, more clever, and more strategically minded than our enemies. We must win strategic battles large and small in order to advance toward an overall victory. We cannot win that victory in one battle, we have to take ground where we can and hold it where we cannot advance. This fight is no less important to the survival of our country than if we were being invaded by a foreign army. We need to consider every move, every action, everything we do to determine if it furthers or hinders our cause.

There are many things I have the right to do yet do not do simply because it does not suit my purpose, or I consider it foolish or harmful, yet I will stand for the rights of others to do that thing that I choose not to do.

I believe that in many cases, the more aggressive open carry advocates do more harm than good. Every time a business puts up a no firearms sign, it is more ammunition for the anti-gunners to make people instinctively feel guns should not have a part in our society. How many businesses have we now seen that were either indifferent or friendly toward firearms who have been converted to an anti-gun stance by in-your-face tactics of open carry advocates? We have even seen cases where anti-gun groups, using every tactic they knew, were unable to change a corporation's stance on firearms, yet open carry activists, showing "support" for the company, were able to do in one or two demonstrations what anti-gun organizations could not.

On the other hand, I recognize the fact that any lawful citizen of this nation has the right to openly carry a weapon. We are on dangerous ground when we start to oppose that truth.

I think we should remind people to be respectful and consider consequences of any action, to be wise and strategic in our fight, and I think many activists have forgotten to think about these things, but we must also remind ourselves that while we may not agree with the way someone exercises a right, and we may politely suggest the act differently, we must be very careful not to condemn them for exercising the right, or we are no different from the progressives who would destroy our basic rights.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:12 pm

looks pretty 3rd world to me - like when I was in Abidjan.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:50 pm

765x53 wrote:The Constitution is not an excuse for being a jack-butt.

The hard nosed stiff necked among us are sometimes as potent an adversary as the antigunners. This is a battle of public perception. Remember it is the mighty oak that goes down in the hurricane while the flexible resilient palm sway in the wind and when the tempest subsides springs proudly upright.

Now I believe that the right to carry should be absolute and unalienable. I am also smart enough to know that will only be possible when we have widespread public acceptance. We will not gain that public acceptance by throwing gasoline on the flames.

We may have a right to be stupid and to publicly flaunt it but it is a wise man who knows the time and place. The NRA has done a good job over the years supporting our cause and the gains we have made over the last generation are largely due to NRA efforts. Personally I favor the NRA persistent pragmatic approach to the extremists who want to charge windmills or butt heads in a political Armageddon. History shows us that the important thing is not to lose. Winning is secondary. The side that stays the course will eventually prevail. Those that insist on a quick victory right now often don't. It worked for George Washington. It worked for the Union in the Civil SWar where Lee threw away all hope for the confederacy by his reckless attack at Gettysburg. It worked for Ftrderick the Great. It worked for Ho Chi Minh, and it worked for Chou En-Lai. OTOH we all know how the reckless all or nothing approach worked for General Custer.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:52 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
On the other hand, I recognize the fact that any lawful citizen of this nation has the right to openly carry a weapon. We are on dangerous ground when we start to oppose that truth.

I think we should remind people to be respectful and consider consequences of any action, to be wise and strategic in our fight, and I think many activists have forgotten to think about these things, but we must also remind ourselves that while we may not agree with the way someone exercises a right, and we may politely suggest the act differently, we must be very careful not to condemn them for exercising the right, or we are no different from the progressives who would destroy our basic rights.

Well said.

Chris

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:21 pm

https://762precision.wordpress.com/2012 ... -activism/

My thoughts on the subject.

Tried to edit a typo in my previous post and accidentally quoted it instead. That left me scratching my head for a moment!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:58 pm

On the other hand, keep feeding the ignorant public some visuals long enough, and they will get used to it....It took awhile in Washington, where it's always been legal to open carry....A few thousand of us did it at the state house more than once. Zero problems. The cops are used to it, the Libtards are used to it....Don't be so dang scared to exercise your rights. A right not used is a right lost

Do you think Blacks would have gotten anyplace by just staying on the back of the bus, and away from White drinking fountains, and lunch counters? *crickets*

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:03 pm

Sixgun wrote:
TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

I agree......word for word. Yes, I am pretty far to the right, but carrying AR's into a coffee shop is like hollaring "FIRE" in a crowded place, which our first ammen. rights are supposed to protect.

This will only lead to weirdos carrying loaded Barrett 50's and letting off a round, intentional or not, and setting us back 25 years.......especially if a Dem is in office when it happens.--------6

Yes. Amen. I agree with both of you.
What Fox said (in the headline) is not necessarily what the NRA said.
I'm not so much against someone safely carrying a gun on them if they don't want to leave it in their car or don't want to have to back track for it.
But to carry it for shock value is silly. And counter-productive. It's usually younguns who don't realize how much we've spent and how hard we've fought to reverse so many of those restrictions we had in the 60s and 70s.

If I'm in the coffee shop and two guys with ARs walk in...I'm leaving quietly. And may watch safely from the parking lot, just in case.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:07 pm

TedH wrote:I have to say I agree with the NRA. You or I, sitting in a restaurant and observe a couple guys walk in with rifles slung, would probably look them over and quickly realize they are exercising their rights and are of no threat to anyone. To the general public, especially those that don't take a position on either side of the gun issue, yet, are going to be a little freaked out by the sight of those guys with their rifles, and form a negative opinion of ALL "gun people", and they will probably remember that next time they are in the voting booth. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. I believe these guys are doing far more harm to "gun rights" by trying to draw attention to themselves. I'm not against open carry, but I always carry concealed. I don't want the bad guy to know I'm armed, before I know he's a criminal with ill intent.

Well stated. I think open carry definitely IS appropriate for some environments (hiking in the forestry, at a conservation club openhouse, rural areas, and even many small towns), but clearly is NOT appropriate for others (anti-gun, paranoid city environments or businesses). Not that I would tell someone they couldn't do it, or think "there should be a law", but it just isn't very 'tasteful'. IF the goal is to persuade neutral folks that "guns and those who carry them are actually ok people" I do think it is better to be more subtle (i.e. let them know you carry concealed, after they've interacted with you and found out you're "ok" - rather than tell them the gun-part first, and have them pre-judge you thereafter).

Also, it is one thing for an occasional patron of a business to be openly armed and well behaved; the bystanders are likely to assume nothing going on and "it may be an off-duty cop", but when a whole gaggle of open-carry people shows up for a demonstration, it certainly can intimidate the non-gun crowd. Not that it should, but it does.

An analogy would be the occasional woman in a restaurant breastfeeding, vs. what if a dozen came in all at once and. . . oh nevermind - now I'll get Old Savage going and we'll all get in trouble. . .

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:15 pm

There was a time when multi -barreled arms, Colt Walkers & Patterson, Henry's and Winchester 73's, then the god awful 7mm & 30 US smokeless rounds that killed so quickly without a sign of where they came from, they were all at sometime the EBR's of their day. Now it's our official US service arm on the AR15/M platforms. Next it will be some kind a case-less laser guided, and then just a laser blaster making everything else obsolete, and we'll be staring at those people who want to hunt or for self defense with it.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:26 pm

FWiedner wrote:
As was also mentioned, concealed carry is legal (with a permit) but brandishing and printing is considered an offense.

Fred, last legistlative session they changed the wording from "fails to conceal" to "intentionally displays". So, printing is no longer an offense. Again, good judgment is in order, but they just wanted to make it where a CHL holder was not a criminal simply because someone could make out his gun grip under his shirt.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:03 pm

I am not opposed to open carry. I am opposed to doing anything avoidable that hurts the fight to restore our constitutionally-protected rights.

I chose to carry concealed, usually. If I do open carry, it is either a pistol or a rifle, depending on the circumstances. Most of these circumstances involve being outdoors. If the situation warrants, I have a carbine I can carry in a backpack. I carried it into a restaurant a week or two ago, since it was easier than locking the car. I don't carry a carbine openly in town - it is not necessary for me and I choose not to do it. However, it is my right to do so, and I will fight to protect that right, whether I use it or not.

What I will say is that we need to act strategically.

I recently read an article about how the acceptance of gays was pushed in the US, and the strategies that were used. Those pushing for a change of public opinion discovered early on that any radical changes or in-your-face action only strengthened and increased the opposition. Instead, they used subtle methods to put things in front of the public and to make the US public more tolerant to the idea. By incrementally manipulating public perception with the use of media, especially, they were able to change the culture concerning this issue in just a few decades.

Now, the same methods are being used to condition the public to accept pedophilia, and if things continue as they are, we can expect a broad tolerance to pedophilia within a couple decades.

In both campaigns, this pushing their agendas moved only as fast as the public was ready to accept the next level, since they learned that radical challenges to what was seen as the norm only resulted in more opposition.

In our society, it is not usual to see normal people or even police or military walking around city streets and eating in restaurants carrying rifles. That just happens to be the society we live in. We do hear all the time about mass shootings,even though they are very rare.

In Israel, as has been mentioned, young people can be seen regularly carrying their issued rifles. It is normal and accepted by society as normal, and no one thinks anything of it - in fact people feel safer as a result.

In our society, it is not normal to see someone caring an AR or AK into a restaurant. Additionally, while the Israelis carry their rifles slung and unloaded in a casual, non-threatening way, I see photos of open carry activists carrying rifles with bolts closed and magazines inserted at the low ready, which will be interpreted by most people as a potentially threatening posture.

As others have said, if I was in a restaurant in most parts of the US and two guys with slovenly clothing and unkept appearance, or wearing a hodgepodge of military gear, carrying AKs, ARs, etc., at the low ready walked in, I will prepare for the worst. It is far outside what we expect to see. Think about how you would react if you were sitting in a restaurant and a couple guys walk in with their pistols drawn and held at the low ready? Entering with a rifle is no different. On the other hand, if a couple guys walk in open carrying pistols in holsters, I will think little of it.

I will not tell anyone what they must do or how to exercise their rights, but I do suggest thinking about how to positively change public perception.

Over and over I hear open carry activists with their AKs and ARs claiming that they are changing the public perception and attitudes, yet overwhelmingly the way I see those attitudes and perceptions changing are not the way we want.

Perhaps a pistol in a holster, nice clothes, good hygiene, and a mild, respectful attitude would be a good way to start. Maybe we should leave the rifles at home until the public has accepted the pistols and is ready for the next step.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:11 pm

Well AJ, breast feeding is OK anywhere, anytime by any number . On the other issue I believe I agree with you. Btw, the MD that practices in our building and has for many years is retiring early due to the economics. Going to work part time at the Kaiser urgent care.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:17 pm

We have too look at how the public looks at firearms and approach the problem accordingly. While carry rights have advanced incredibly the last couple decades, and the actual ownership and carry of firearms is way up from what it used to be, We are still far from the days when people generally accepted firearms and their purposes. Even in situations in which we would expect people to accept firearms, they do not anymore.

A good example is the time I was fishing with my two small boys and my father-in-law for dollies on the Kenai Peninsula. As we worked our way upstream we came near a campground where we found an old guy fishing. He had come to Alaska in the late 1940s as a young man, and had some neat stories, so I spoke with him for a while as my father-in-law fished. He was carrying a Smith .44 mag. and I had a Winchester 71 in my hand. The campground parking lot was filled with motorhomes and military-tagged cars with license plates from various states. As we talked a group of about 7 or 8 people wandered down to the creek from the campground and began ridiculing us, calling us John Wayne and Rambo, and asking us if we were scared of bears. They genuinely thought we were the joke of the century standing out there in the woods at the edge of a salmon stream armed. We moved upstream about 25 meters through a few trees to a feeder stream, where huge brown bear prints were slowly filling with water and crumbling next to several half-eaten sockeyes.

Those people were camping 50 meters from where two brown bear were tearing apart salmon, and thought we were completely ridiculous for carrying firearms.

We need to change public perceptions, but we have a lot of work to do.

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:39 pm

I can see both sides point of view, too many liberals think a unarmed society will be a perfect world and yhe police will protect us, then again, why so many AR's, they don't look good in the general public eye, and if a guy wants to carry one 24-7 and sleep in cammo pj's uncle sam yous to pay a guy to do it. I think part of the problem is the world breeds like rats, everyone keeps having a half a dozen kids or more, we have no more room for individual rights, we have to make it safer for everyone.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:44 pm

I'm with Chris on this. I'd watch the scene unfold very carefully and I'd have a my arms very ready, and mind my own business. I see this all the time in Mexico, the reason it makes Texans pee their panties is that they DON'T see enough of it.

I would 100% rather see what they have, if they read peaceful intentions I'm good with that. It's the evil-doers who blindside people and sucker punch them and disguise their intentions until the last instant that I watch for.

I much prefer to see some good percentage of the straight civilian population carrying than leave it to swat teams and other "official" gun bearers to be the only ones with visible arms. It's more unnerving to me that the majority of respondants prefer to only have government entities showing any visible arms.

What does that say? Maybe a lot about the wimpiness and twisted-pantaloons of the nra.

Maybe the majority actually feel they are safer if they can't see any weapons? Or they think the poster boy for the nra has none? The anti-gunners will like us better and treat us nicer if they don't see our guns? Like the o'liar policy of bending over for the mzlm-brohoods so they will adore us?
When is that going to work?

Just sayin',

Grizz

Chris83716 wrote:Okay, I’ll grant if I was in a coffee shop and those two walked in they would get more than a cursory glance. But I don’t see anything to wet your pants over.

Both rifles are slung.

AK pattern rifle has a YELLOW chamber indicator in the OPEN action. (I would be willing to bet the AR does also) It would be nice to see the magazines removed.

They are not dressed like mall ninjas’ / ATF agents at Waco.

Time to drink my coffee.

This is not a problem in Israel. Why should it be a problem here? A few more Boston type bombings or some jihadists on the lose and this will be a common place sight.

Keep in mind that the most dangerous thing most of us do is get into a car and drive some where. When was the last time you worried about dying on the way to the supermarket?

It’s a RIGHT to keep and bear arms not a suggestion.

Chris

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:56 pm

As long as we have our village idiots out demonstrating for open carry, we can rest assured the public will balk at the concept. I am PRO GUN/2A, but still prefer not to see others openly carrying firearms, long or short. When I see a firearm unless it is an LEO or in a setting appropriate for the need of a firearm, my threat level peaks and puts me on edge. There is no rest until I am 100% certain the individual is not a threat, it still remains elevated until I am certain they are competent handling a firearm.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:03 pm

Grizz wrote:The anti-gunners will like us better and treat us nicer if they don't see our guns?
When is that going to work?

Never will. The true hard-core anti-gunners will not change their minds. Their position is an emotional one that is not based on rational thought, therefore they have a religious-like devotion to it.

It is only those average, normal Americans who have not really given the issue much thought or have never taken a strong, educated stance that can be educated and come to see the truth.

We tried to court the anti-gunners in '86, and you can see where that got us. It never works.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:13 pm

When I see a firearm unless it is an LEO or in a setting appropriate for the need of a firearm, my threat level peaks and puts me on edge. There is no rest until I am 100% certain the individual is not a threat

this is interesting because there are maybe HUNDREDS of civilians who got shot by the LEOs you trust. I can site a number of instances of cops murdering civilians and getting off scott-free. DO AN INTERNET SEARCH. The guy in Albuquerque comes to mind, gunned down in cold blood, shot in the Back. The wood carver in Seattle is another. The recent and constant "wrong address" no-knock home invasions that never seem to stop, it just keeps going. These are the ones that sooth someone's threat-level?

there is absolutely nothing about a strutting LEO that doesn't peak My threat level. blind trust in them is not rational.

I know that there are some decent ones. somewhere. and I hope I only meet their kind. but I have been threatened by swaggering gun waving cops and I don't think my threat level was any lower than when the gang-banger was threating mortal harm last month. It reads exactly the same to me.

only tyrannical regimes are endowed with merciless murdering rights at the expense of the citizens.

Grizz

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:27 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote:a setting appropriate for the need of a firearm

Need is a dangerous criteria.

If you don't have it when you don't need it, you won't have it when you do need it.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:46 pm

So lets all load up the pick up truck with our kids, women and our fanciest shootin irons and go have us a demonstration at the local Chilli's, Texas Road House, or the restaurant of your choice!

Sorry, I ain't drinking your Kool-Aid! I carry frequently, and do not feel that I need to demonstrate to preserve my 2A rights. Preservation of our 2A rights is best preserved with an educated approach and political activism. Open carry not only removes the element of surprise, it would also make you a target likely to be neutralized at the onset of any violent action. If I am playing poker, I don't want the joker in my hand face up on the table!

As far as the comment regarding a trust in LEOs. It is generalized, I trust cops until the threat level goes up. It is a sad state that we do have to question the competence and integrity of some, but I believe the majority are legit!

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:48 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
horsesoldier03 wrote:a setting appropriate for the need of a firearm
Need is a dangerous criteria.

If you don't have it when you don't need it, you won't have it when you do need it.

It will be there, and I will be the only one that knows it until I feel the need to share it's presence!