3031 and 38-55

[BrentD]

Can anyone reference a range of powder charges for the .38-55 using 3031 powder? I have no list for it in the references I have here.

I am using Lyman 250 gr flatnosed cast bullets. Plain base, no gas checks allowed.

I am not looking for max loads but I definitely should know what the maximum should be, but also the minimum as well.

Brent

[OldWin]

I use IMR3031 in 38-55 quite a bit. Usually, between 28 and 31 grains works well but for me the warmer loads shoot better with this powder. Max amounts are a tough call because older manuals and guns chambered for this cartridge are all over the place. A good solid 94 with good headspace should handle 31gr without a problem.

[BrentD]

Thanks, I have a 1920s Marlin 93 in good condition. Are you using plain base lead bullets with those loads? I wonder if they might be in excess of what might be expected to work well lead based bullets.

Brent

[OldWin]

Those warmer loads I've only used with jacketed or gas checked bullets. If you use cast make sure you slug your barrel and get the sizing where it needs to be. The 38-55 can vary with groove diameter.

Sorry, I was half asleep when I read your post last night and missed the whole plain based cast bullet part.

[earlmck]

Brent, you can't stuff enough 3031 in that 38/55 case to get into pressure trouble. Or at least, into high pressure trouble. It's going to be operating at real low pressures, maybe below what it is designed for. For example, QuickLoad thinks you'd get 1400 fps (maybe about all you want for your plain-base bullet) with 26 grains of 3031 at a bit under 13K psi.

I'd be thinking you would be better served with something like Unique or Power Pistol or Blue Dot or.... what do you have available in a faster powder?

[Malamute]

Earl, what does quickload say about pressure for 35 grs 3031 with a 250 gr bullet? The older Lyman manuals show it with jacketed bullets, and I believe with the plain base cast, though I may be mistaken on that. The manual shows about 1800 fps.

[BrentD]

Earl, I have used a bunch of different powders, 4198, 4227, 4759, and more but found that they all have position problems. The first listed however, did best in this respect and accuracy is respectable. I have the impression that 3031 loads would be quite a bit bulkier and I thought that might solve this problem better. So, when I suddenly was confronted by a can of it on the shelf, I immediately and impulsively bought it. I only need 1300-1500 fps to knock over a ram at 200 yds though. Less recoil is a good thing too for competitive purposes.

I have not tried Unique, but I have Red Dot, Blue Dot and 2400 around for other reasons. I could try them but I dislike using pistol powder in rifle cartridges. Just seems like an accident waiting to happen. No doubt they can be made to work well, however.

Thanks for the advice guys.

Brent

[Yodar]

Brent,

I have a couple of suggested .38/55 loads for you.

1.) Winchester cases, CCI#200 primers, 27 grains of IMR-3031, 250 grain SAECO #373 cast lead, gas-checked bullet sized 0.376" (barrel groove diameter 0.375"), Lee crimped, OAL=2.43". Muzzle velocity averaged 1574 fps from a a 26" barreled Winchester Model 94. Five shot group size was 13/16" at 50 yards.

2.) Same cases and primers as above, 25 grains of IMR-3031, Oregon Trail Laser Cast 240 grain cast lead bullet, no gas-check, 0.377" diameter. Muzzle velocity averaged 1268 fps, OAL= 2.52", Five shot group size was 1 3/16" at 50 yards.

The second load is a lot more "user friendly".

Good luck and refrain from "hot rodding" the .38/55.

[BigSky56]

RCBS#1 manual shows with a 250 cast and 3031 26 gr for 1357 fps, 28 gr 3031 for 1448 fps. for sr4759 20 gr for 1533 fps, 22 grs for 1676 fps. the other powders they list are Re7,2400,unique,PB,red dot and 700X. gun for test was a 24" 94 1-18 twist ,ww cases and cci200 primers. danny

[Malamute]

I have not tried Unique, but I have Red Dot, Blue Dot and 2400 around for other reasons. I could try them but I dislike using pistol powder in rifle cartridges.

fwiw, 2400 is classified as a rifle powder.

[Blaine]

The "Dots" are considered shotgun powders. I started with Blue Dot on my .44 mags and never saw a reason to change.
Ed Harris' The Load with Red Dot
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

[BrentD]

I have not tried Unique, but I have Red Dot, Blue Dot and 2400 around for other reasons. I could try them but I dislike using pistol powder in rifle cartridges.

fwiw, 2400 is classified as a rifle powder.

I thought it was a magnum pistol powder - I use it in a .38-40 Marlin and it does quite well.

Ed, that is why I have the Dots. Shotguns.

[earlmck]

Earl, what does quickload say about pressure for 35 grs 3031 with a 250 gr bullet? The older Lyman manuals show it with jacketed bullets, and I believe with the plain base cast, though I may be mistaken on that. The manual shows about 1800 fps.

With the Lyman FNPB, 250 grain, 2.57 COAL, about 1900 fps, about 28K psi, firmly compressed but do-able. So says QL -- Earl here has not tried it (don't yet have a 38-55).

I rather like to use shotgun powders for rifle loads, especially when said loads are operating at shotgun-level pressures. Just my little bias -- pay me no never mind. If 26 grains of 3031 gets the job done that is great. It won't rattle around a great deal and there sure isn't room for a double charge. Which there would be with 13 grains of Blue Dot, which would probably be my first choice for the plain-base bullet here.

A Gas-checked bullet on the other hand, shot at 1750 to 1900 fps, would be a definite 3031 application.

[Sixgun]

If you ever get the chance to take apart early factory smokeless 38-55, or for that matter any dash calibered straight walled previous blackpowder round, you will notice but little powder in the case. I have forgotten the amount of 38-55, 32-20, 45-70, 45-90, 40-65, 40-82 and other ones that I have dissected.

You know why there are small amounts of smokeless powder in them? It's because they are fast burning and will work in almost all weather conditions.

3031 is OK for a tight fitting cast bullet or a jacketed bullet in most temps...but try a semi light charge of 3031 with a soft cast bullet with outside temps below 30..... Hang fires and wide variations in velocity will happen. If your going to to use an IMR powder in the 38-55, use 4198.

Nothing, but nothing beats Accurate Arms 5744 in the old straight walled cases. It has a high nitro content that ignites easily and at any position at any temperature.

An old 1940's Lyman manual that I have lists 30 grains of 3031 with a 255 cast lead bullet for 1575 fps.---6

Earl, you betcha on the shotgun powders.......very hard to beat Unique or Blue Dot for most applications under say.......1300. Unique is my favorite for match velocity shooting....you know, precision paper shooting......if a gun does not shoot at 1050 fps, it's just not going to shoot.

[BrentD]

No worries about 30 below. This is for shooting rams off the rails at Raton in July. If it comes to -30, I'll be using a full case of 1.5 fg.

Not sure that 1050 will knock rams off of rails, esp. with head winds. Might, might not. But I just don't like really low amounts of powder in my brass. And I don't like the position issues that some of the powders that I have used exhibit. I don't know about Unique or BD or RD in that respect however.

I have the 3031 so I will give it a try with about 26 grs and see what happens.

[Sixgun]

No worries about 30 below. This is for shooting rams off the rails at Raton in July. If it comes to -30, I'll be using a full case of 1.5 fg.

Not sure that 1050 will knock rams off of rails, esp. with head winds. Might, might not. But I just don't like really low amounts of powder in my brass. And I don't like the position issues that some of the powders that I have used exhibit. I don't know about Unique or BD or RD in that respect however.

I have the 3031 so I will give it a try with about 26 grs and see what happens.

Brent,
Congrats on the trip to Raton...wish I could go.
I've shot my share of rams at 200 meters with most calibers, with the takedown 38-55 1893 Marlin pictured in my avatar doing it's fair share. In that rifle I push a 270 grain NEI gas check at 1500, resulting in about a 98% knock down percentage on the rams. Yep, if you hit them low, right above the pecker, or any where else lower central, you can lose them. I've lost a few with the 270 grain in the 40-65 traveling at 1500 also. Funny thing, I've never lost any rams with the 348, no matter where I hit them and that's a 215 gr. at 1600.... Never could figure that one out.

Remember, the slower the velocity, the more precise you need to be, as to follow through and front sight placement. Just a pubic hair difference will send the shot over or below the ram....that why I like a 1600 fps minimum. If you notice, most of the master class shooters use the 30-30 at 2,000.

You do not want match velocity on the 200 meter rams, but....that's your choice. If I was going to spend the bucks on the travel to Raton, I would be putting everything in my favor.---6

[BrentD]

I have been to Raton many times for BPCR and several (3?) times for the CLA matches. I have shot my Marlin .38-55 with 250 grn Lyman plain base bullets and 15.5 grs of 4227 or 19.1 grn of 4198 and never lost a ram. Shooting loads like yours is a lot of overkill and recoil that doesn't do much for scores. So, I want to keep the velocity down below 1500 for sure. But I am not confident that 1050 would get the job done.

One can't knock a ram over if one doesn't hit it. So, I'm looking for 1300-1500 fps and not more, maybe less.