Project Mauser7mm: Stripping Stocks

[FatJackDurham]

I started stripping the stocks on the RB 7mm Mauser. There has been a flurry of stock refinishing posts lately so I figured now would be a good time to start and get advice if needed.

The back story is that I got the RB No. 5 at auction. The forend had been chopped down. I ordered replacement forends, but they came in much darker and browner than the redish original. So, I am trying to strip them down and refinish them.

1) I started with StripEase. In this picture, I have applied the first coat of StripEase. It shows the difference in colors.


2) I did three coats of StripEase, I wiped it off with papertowels, and rubbed it out with mineral spirits and acetone.


3) Figuring the StripEase was played through, I switched to Moorland Finish remover.


4) The Moorland Finish Remover is more liquid than gel. I applied it with a paint brush and then scrubbed each piece with a toothbrush. It definitely was lifting stain, it was brown ooze. I rinsed it off with water and a light scrub with a scrub pad. I noticed that the forend and handguard were definitely soaking the liquid and water up more. I wonder if this means it's a different type of wood, or if it was just that the buttstock still had lacquer in it.


In the last picture, I added a sanded side of the original, cut down forend. It is much redder. Even the buttstock is brownish, sort of green. The forends are darker still.

So, question: Do I re-treat with Finish Remover or StripEase more, or use Oven Cleaner, Bleach, Vinegar?

Incidentally, how do you use bleach to do this? How long, how to apply, how to clean.

[TheWoodCrafter]

You do have a bit of a project going there.
The forearm may be of the same type wood just a different tree.
Your wood looks like walnut. Is it?
Walnut can be different colors depending on the exact species, the tree and how far into the tree the wood was from.
I would expect the wood color to be different when changing things around.

Stripper will remove some of the stain but not all of it. It is in the grain.
You could bleach ALL the color out of all the wood then mix the color of stain you want.

You can buy wood bleach and it comes with instructions on how to mix and use it.
I have successfully used Clorox to remove the color from blackened wood.
It was a trial and error application.
I cut it 50% with water. I brushed it on, let it dry, rinsed with water, let it dry and checked the color or lack of color.

Another way to get the color the same is to custom mix stain.
You could mix up 2 colors.
One for the brown wood and one for the red wood trying to get to one common color.
I would recommend an gel stain to be able to control to amount of color.
Other type of stain oil or alcohol based just soak right in. Easy to repair.
Gel sits on top and can be wiped off to control how much you apply. Hard to repair a chip later.

Finishing and refinishing are complete professions.
If you don't have much experience you may want to think about farming it out

[Mike Armstrong]

Don't know about the replacement wood, but the original would have been American black walnut. As far as I know, that was the only wood Remington used in that era. You could order English walnut for the higher grades of double shotguns, but for military arms it was all black walnut from the Midwest.

[Pete44ru]

.

I would stop the stripping, and raise the dents via steaming them with a household clothes iron, pressed on a damp cloth over each dent.
Lightly sand any raised grain.

I would then stain the wood with a Black Walnut - which can even the colors by judicious extra staining of the lighter areas.

I mix Red Mahogany stain (25%-40%) in with the Black Walnut stain (60%-75%) to counter-balance any difference in colors (and, I prefer the reddish, Winchester-type color - YMMV).


.

[92&94]

I like Minwax stains for going over hardwood. The seem to have more dye and less pigment than Cabot's. Colors are a bit funky with Minwax though, like Pete, I have to mix to get what I want. I like "gunstock" and "English Chestnut" to warm up otherwise dull walnut. I may have to try Pete's mix, I like that dark, reddish look too

I don't like bleaching wood myself. Seems to get overly fuzzy and porous and my results have never been good when I have tried it. I've never tried Chlorox though, just the "wood bleach" sold in the hardware store. I think it's oxalic acid, IIRC.

I would leave it there for the stripping, and either lightly sand or better yet scrape some to see if the color improves. If you don't want to take the wood down any, I'd raise the dents and stain it.

If you ever strip one and find some nice darker color walnut, try skipping the stain and using some genuine linseed oil as a base coat. Takes a long time to cure, but the oil should help keep the walnut nice and dark. Linseed darkens as it oxidizes, which it will do even if you have a coat of poly over the top of it.

[FatJackDurham]

Thanks, 92&94.

In another forum I posted a link that describes testing stains and staining a gun stock.
http://sparetimeactivities.net/StockStain.htm

In this, the author compares penetrating vs gel stains. He also has another page that talks just about stain, and prep.

In this link, he uses a penetrating stain, then strips it out, including using bleach and vinegar. I think I am going to give that a try tonight.

After that, I'll steam it, then reassemble it to the gun so that I can sand it with the metal installed so that I dont ruin the fit.

Thanks ..

[FatJackDurham]

After Bleach



There were dark stains that I thought were actual stain, but after bleaching the look more like rust.



I used straight clorox. Brushed it on, let it soak for a minute, wiped off the drips, and let it dry for about 15 minutes or more. Then I did it two more times. Finally, after it dried a bit, I brushed vinegar on ostensibly to neutralize the bleach, but that could be rinsed off. I think the vinegar must be more for neutralizing the lye if you use oven cleaner.

Anyway, bleach definitely lightened the wood, including the long forend, but it still has darkness. However, I think it's enough. Tomorrow, steaming, and then the next day, sanding.

[geobru]

Good project!

I'd start with the stain now as others have said. You can experiment by putting the stain on and removing it after a short time to compare how each piece takes the stain. Reapply stain to each piece as needed to get a uniform color. Some may take more applications than others, but you should be able to get what you want.

[TheWoodCrafter]

Jack,

In that link the author is demonstrating how to stain maple to look like walnut.
You would never use a penetrating stain either oil or alcohol based on maple.
Maple absorbs stain very unevenly without pre-stain sealing (conditioning) or using a gel stain.

[FatJackDurham]

Jack,

In that link the author is demonstrating how to stain maple to look like walnut.
You would never use a penetrating stain either oil or alcohol based on maple.
Maple absorbs stain very unevenly without pre-stain sealing (conditioning) or using a gel stain.

Yep, and if you go up to the top and click the Staining link, he also shows a comparison of different stains, different woods, etc.

I am glad I saw that link. I used to use penetrating stain, now I know why it doesn't work.

[92&94]

Maple is a whole different animal

I like the traditional musket stain for maple, either ferric nitrate or ferric acetate, nice colors, works with the figure, and doesn't get blotchy like penetrating stain, or obscure the wood with a pigment film like gel stain. I've used ferric acetate with good results on a couple stocks, though you really need to be able to dunk them for a nice even coat.

[Ysabel Kid]

Excellent progress!

[TheWoodCrafter]

So Jack,

How's the project coming?

I have one I may be starting next week.

[mark08]

Don't fret, there are many books on stains and finishes.(100's, all disagreeing). The final finish is not an exact science. That is why surface stains, paint, dyes and air brushing are all used. In a furniture or cabinet factory there are usually 28 steps from raw stock to final product, 19 of these steps are in the finishing room. I learned to first seal the wood, Sanding sealer was my choice to seal then use stain or a mix of stains to get the tone and even out the color differences in the wood. Red, brown and black are the most widely used to mix a stain. You can buy them already mixed by a trade name or mix the mixes. Of course paint is always even. After getting the tone then reseal. You can again stain and reseal. Then add finish or wax ( I like Johnson's paste floor wax). I like gun stocks to look "rubbed oil" or satin rather then a more gloss finish. It can and usually is a trying experience. But there are many roads to get where you want to go. seems everyone has their favorite. Don't hurry, take your time and it will come out OK. In the cabinet business I learned than the greatest joinery and craftsmanship can be destroyed by a bad finish job. Good luck

[FatJackDurham]

I sanded and discovered the bleach is only skin deep. So, I ended up sanding it all with 120,180,220, and 280 grit. Afterwards, the natural red walnut was showing better on all pieces, but it still wasn't a uniform color, so I will stain.

Before staining, I raised the grain by wiping water on and letting it dry. In case, like me, you have never done this, check out this picture of what happens:



As you can see, little wiskers of wood rise up out of the grain, which might other wise mess up your finish. Instead of sanding with 320, I rubbed these out with steel wool, rubbed the wood down with a tack cloth, and applied a pre-stain. Then, I used Min-Wax Gel Stain Walnut



So, now it's drying for 8 hours. I'll put another coat on tonight, and then tomorrow, a third coat on the buttstock only.

[mark08]

wetting with water then sanding makes for a smooth wood surface. Might even do that 2-3 times. Sanding sealer like water raises the wood grain, But then holds the whiskers in place to be sanded and prevent a new crop of whiskers. Doing so twice with sanding sealer will, most of the time give a smooooother surface and prevent the wood grain from raising again when staining and/or finishing. Makes for a little less sanding thus removing less wood. Also helps prevent blotting of the wood while staining . I like sanding sealer for many reasons but some folks like sanding more than I.

[FatJackDurham]

Well, it definitely looks better, but I am wavering between satisfaction and dis- over the color and finish. SInce I have this gel stain on, the low gloss tung oil is not really soaking in, and rubbing with steel wool kind of leaves a plastic look. I think the solution will be to put a coat on and let it cure for several days, and then rub it down. We'll see. It definitely looks better than before, though.





Here it is before. The buttstock now matches the forends better and all are in better shape. If I can get a finish I like, I'll be happy.

[mark08]

The wood was probably sealed from the original finish. The pre-stain is a sealer also. The gel stain would then lay on top of the sealers. Oil weather linseed, tung or any of the many others only soaks in on the first finish. The residue from the succeeding coats stay on the surface. By applying muitli coats and letting them dry a day or two will build "wax" for lack of a better term. You then buff to desired luster. latter repair to scratches is simply buffing and/or adding another oil coat. At this point you now have the wood sealed and toned to where you want, luster is all left to do. The oil finish will continue to harden for some time (months). It looks great. you have done good.

[FatJackDurham]

Thanks.

[mark08]

HI JACK, just wanted say that. makes security people jump.

A little info on wood and how it relates to various conditions and functions. Most of this you may already know. if so, let me bore you. If you think of wood as being a bunch of splinters made up of cells that are water soaked round sponges. As the moisture content of the sponges (cells) decrease the sponges (cell) shrink. At 8% moisture the sponges become round hard balls. think ping pong ball. At 6% moisture the ping pong balls become dented and/or crushed. Ever try to get a dent out of a ping pong ball? It is at this point the wood becomes stable, the ability to absorb moisture is almost non- existent thus the wood does not swell nor shrink. Wood to be used in furniture, cabinets ,.,.etc ( gun stocks) is taken down to 6% moisture or less for this reason. Construction lumber comes out of the kiln at 19% moisture. That is why construction lumber can shrink/swell as much as 1/2" per foot. Your house creaks and cracks as the seasons change. Doors stick or won't stay closed...etc. WHY?
keeping the dented/crushed ping pong balls in mind, now consider the finishing process on the wood. How deep does the stain, oil or finish go into the wood?? Not very far. In finishing what is really happening is that the pores in the wood are filled. The dimples left on the surface are filled, then high spots surrounding the dimples are sanded down. Do this till all pores are completely filled and the surface is level and smooth. The same look can be achieved by adding on layers and layers of finish. The dimples will get less and less. But now the finish is thick. Thick finish can and will chip easily. By sanding between finish coats you remove what you just put on except what is in the dimples. There is only minor build up of finish on the surface. A great finish is slick not thick. Then buff or polish to the luster you want. The duller a finish the softer the finish, the harder a finish the glossier the finish. Soft finishes are easier to repair. Thus good for a gun stock. Here is how oil finish works, carrier dries, Wax left behind, wax buffed to luster.

Hope this helps. Info to get rid of some common myths about wood and finishing.

Now you tell me about metal and bluing. I don't under stand that process at all.

[92&94]

True boiled linseed oil will actually soak in quite deeply, because it dries so slowly. It's often disparaged as a finish, but it sure does work well on a stock when done right. The stuff from the typical hardware store dries much quicker, it's catalyzed rather than boiled, and behaves much more like other film finishes from the hardware store.

[FatJackDurham]

Mark, thanks. I didn't know that about the percent of water and wood's ability or inability to swell due to it.

Blueing is easy by comparison. The iron content of steel oxidizes on contact with air and water, forming red rust, chemical formula is Fe2O3. Bluing is the process of forming a rind of black iron oxide, Fe3O4, also called magnetite.

The black oxide provides a barrier between the iron/steel and the oxygen and moisture in the air to prevent red oxide forming. However, alone, bluing is only minimally protective. With oil applied and present in the metal pores, it becomes extremely effective at blocking new oxidation.

Hot Bluing is the most common process used in manufacturing due to it's speed and durability. The gun is submerged in a tank of an alkali salt solution at high temperatures (275-310 degrees F). The gun metal turns black and is removed, polished and oiled.

Cold Bluing (excluding rust bluing or browning) is a quick process of wiping a bluing solution on degreased steel to turn it black. Some solutions require a mild heating such as boiling or using a blow dryer to improve the reaction. Cold bluing isn't usually very durable, and is the least durable method, although a number of the professional and amateur smiths here use Oxpho and recommend it.

Rust Bluing is a cold process using an acid solution to accelerate the red rust process of the metal, usually followed by boiling to convert it to black oxide. This is the method I usually use. Rust bluing was one of the first methods of bluing used and is the most durable. After boiling, the rust is carded off with steel wool to leave a smooth surface. After a number of repititions, rust bluing is oiled to cure, and can provide a very nice finish.

As well, rust bluing doesnt have to be boiled if you want an aged brown or plum patina. As with any rust, oiling will stop the reaction.

Interestingly, boiling regular red rust doesnt turn it black as happens with the rusting solutions. However, if you scrub a red rust patch with steel wool, and oil it, it will take on a black or brown finish.

Rust bluing is easy, economical but time consuming. I do about 5 to 7 repititions, once a day for a week. I degrease the metal, apply the solution and hang it in a humid location to rust. The next day, I boil the part for 15 minutes, card it with steel wool, degrease it and then apply the solution again.

Another nice thing about rust bluing is that the rusting process takes the edges of scratch and sanding marks. You only have to polish the metal up to about 280 grit at the most, and the rust blue leaves a flat smooth appearance. For other processes, you need to polish better.

I recommend Pilkingtons for a more classic brown look, and Brownells Classic rust blue for a darker, gray appearance.

[FatJackDurham]

True boiled linseed oil will actually soak in quite deeply, because it dries so slowly. It's often disparaged as a finish, but it sure does work well on a stock when done right. The stuff from the typical hardware store dries much quicker, it's catalyzed rather than boiled, and behaves much more like other film finishes from the hardware store.

So the boiled Linseed oil from the hardware store isn't really boiled?

[TheWoodCrafter]

Hey Jack,

What is the difference with parkerizing to what you have described?

[FatJackDurham]

Well, according to WikiPedia,
"It serves as a conversion coating in which a dilute solution of phosphoric acid and phosphate salts is applied via spraying or immersion and chemically reacts with the surface of the part being coated to form a layer of insoluble, crystalline phosphates"

So, instead of an iron oxide layer, it's iron phosphate, or FePO4. WikiPedia says says this is insoluble, which is probably how it protects it from casual water. A skin of this iron phosphate would be much more resistant to rust than bluing, as bluing is rust itself, and an addition of water and oxygen would resume the rusting process. The iron phosphate wouldnt.

I guess. Not an expert, I have just done a few rust blues and cold blues, and had a hot blue done, and read a bunch of online stuff about it.

Parkerizing is also done in a hot tank environment, although there are probably cold kits. I would think hot tank is the best.

[mark08]

Jack!!
you answered another question I had but would have not thought to ask you. Q:: Why when I started taking IRON pills it turned black?. A::: Fe3o4 I assume that is Ferris not Ferric.

Thanks

[FatJackDurham]

Jack!!
you answered another question I had but would have not thought to ask you. Q:: Why when I started taking IRON pills it turned black?. A::: Fe3o4 I assume that is Ferris not Ferric.

Thanks

Well, it's definitely excess iron, I dunno how much oxide is in it, but the sulfuric acid in your stomach and other chemicals would turn it black.....

YOu are welcome? Maybe you should ask madman if the dog poo he had to deal with had iron evidence in it.....

[TheWoodCrafter]

Thanks Jack.

[92&94]

True boiled linseed oil will actually soak in quite deeply, because it dries so slowly. It's often disparaged as a finish, but it sure does work well on a stock when done right. The stuff from the typical hardware store dries much quicker, it's catalyzed rather than boiled, and behaves much more like other film finishes from the hardware store.

So the boiled Linseed oil from the hardware store isn't really boiled?

No, the real boiled stuff only comes from specialty suppliers anymore, the most readily available brand is "Tried & True". The stuff from the hardware store is catalyzed with a metal oxide to make it cure faster. The few times I've used it, the oil cured overnight and formed a film after only a few coats.

The really slow drying stuff soaks in better when thinned a bit and applied repeatedly. Those samples I made in the pic a few posts back had oil soak all the way through in spots, samples are under 1/8" but over 1/16". It never really forms a film at all, and often retains a sticky kind of feel for a long time. I believe that following the oil with a wax will knock down the sticky feel a bit. The other thing is that in cold wet weather, you may get different results than I get here in the desert. In the hot dry months I can almost get a film to build, gummy though it is Once the summer rains start, it takes longer to dry and it's much more important to wipe off the excess oil.

[Alan Wood]

The one problem with boiled linseed oil whether true or catalyzed is that any rags or other such that is contaminated with it must be disposed of in a tightly sealing metal trash can in an non inflammable location. Simply stated rags from boiled linseed oil are a fire hazard due to spontaneous combustion! This is well documented!

[FatJackDurham]

The one problem with boiled linseed oil whether true or catalyzed is that any rags or other such that is contaminated with it must be disposed of in a tightly sealing metal trash can in an non inflammable location. Simply stated rags from boiled linseed oil are a fire hazard due to spontaneous combustion! This is well documented!

Good grief!!! What about the gun stocks?!?!?? There is more cellulose there than in a cotton rag, isnt there?!?!?

[92&94]

That is true of all drying oils, not just linseed. Oils oxidize as they dry, which is an exothermic reaction - it releases heat. In a rag there is a very high ratio of surface area to mass, so the oxidation can get out of control and start burning. Not so on a piece of wood where the ratio of surface area to mass is very low.

You will have the same rag problem with tung oil, danish oil, or any of the "oil finishes" sold in your local hardware store. I find it easy enough to spread rags out flat until they are stiff, then toss them in the trash. Once the rag is stiff, oxidation has more or less ceased.

[FatJackDurham]

Well, my house should have burned down by now....

[mark08]

How about mink oil? My feet still get cold in my boots.

[mark08]

Observation:::::

The difference in price between paint thinner and mineral spirits? Paint thinner is 100% mineral spirits !!!!!.

[FatJackDurham]

Which is cheaper?

[92&94]

The cheaper stuff sold as "paint thinner" is a less refined form of mineral spirits. It is a mix of various petroleum solvents and tends to be a bit stinkier than odorless mineral spirits. Both are technically mineral spirits, a somewhat antique term from an age when you also had "spirits of wine" (ethanol) and "gum spirits" (like turpentine) as trade names for solvents.

Xylene and naptha are often components of mineral spirits, IIRC, naptha is as refined as it gets and is the stuff if you want to put the most pure stuff in your paint or varnish for thinning. Also handy to have around if you are a Zippo aficionado or have an old Coleman stove or lantern - naptha fuels all of these.