30-30 Elk Ammo Question

[jkbrea]

I posted earlier that I had bought a Marlin 30-30 to use a an elk gun this year. I did not want to use my usual 45-70 or 30-06 because I had a shoulder replacement 4 mo ago. Aside from ammo being hard to find, I was trying to figure out what ammo to use. I have 1/2 box of Leverevolution and 3/4 box of Rem CoreLokt 170 grain. I was reading about the Buffalo Bore 190 grain and they claim it generates the same velocity as the 30-30 170 grain bullet. Does that translate into a lot more recoil? Looking at the chart, it retains enough energy to take down an elk farther than I would use a 30-30 for. Here is the link to their site.
http://extreme-impact-ammo.com/index.ph ... tail&p=222
I don't reload so I apologize for my ignorance on bullets. It just seems these Buffalo Bore rounds would punch through bone much better. Where I hunt I've only taken two elk at long distance. The other 15-16 have been at less that 100 yards. Any thoughts or advice?

[Blaine]

If you can slip it in behind the shoulder, I opine that a 170gr GreenBox would do the trick...at least I hope so, as I take a 30wcf out fairly often if only because that 1951 94 looks so dang good

[harry]

I posted earlier that I had bought a Marlin 30-30 to use a an elk gun this year. I did not want to use my usual 45-70 or 30-06 because I had a shoulder replacement 4 mo ago. Aside from ammo being hard to find, I was trying to figure out what ammo to use. I have 1/2 box of Leverevolution and 3/4 box of Rem CoreLokt 170 grain. I was reading about the Buffalo Bore 190 grain and they claim it generates the same velocity as the 30-30 170 grain bullet. Does that translate into a lot more recoil? Looking at the chart, it retains enough energy to take down an elk farther than I would use a 30-30 for. Here is the link to their site.
http://extreme-impact-ammo.com/index.ph ... tail&p=222
I don't reload so I apologize for my ignorance on bullets. It just seems these Buffalo Bore rounds would punch through bone much better. Where I hunt I've only taken two elk at long distance. The other 15-16 have been at less that 100 yards. Any thoughts or advice?

I'm pretty sure that if your shoulder can't handle a 30-06 that you won't want to shoot those 190's in your 30-30. The 170's will take care of any thing that needs to be taken care of.

[JerryB]

Never shot an elk, but I have killed deer with Remington 170 grain Corelokt ammo and it will kill them dead without a problem. I have read of elk shot with this round so it should work.

[1886]

How about the Barnes 150gr TSX FN projectile. This bullet is available in commercially loaded ammo and as a component for "rolling your own". It should bust an elk just fine. 1886.

[Don McDowell]

Those 190's are going to kick....
Find the 150 or 170 gr factory load your rifle likes the best,(150's will have a bit less felt recoil than the 170's) and enjoy the hunt.

[Grizz]

I don't know. The 190s are listed at 2100fps. They may be a shove rather than the snap of the 150 at 2400. Would an in-stock recoil compensator help?

Can you shoot from the other shoulder?

Can you shoot a handgun? They are easier on the shoulders and distribute the recoil to your frame better.

[Sixgun]

A buddy of mine. (Lots older ) has killed 28 elk with the 30-30, all under a hundred yards using factory 170 gr. Winchester or Remington ammo. I've killed 'em with a 33 win. which is not a whole lot stronger. Mid size cartridges which are in the magical 2000-2400 fops range have excellent sectional density and will penetrate well. Keep your shots under a hundred, aim well, and you will be OK.

[BigSky56]

In the past Ive used hornady & speer 170's now I use a 173 beartooth HCGC bullet. You could order some hornady 150 or 170 ammo. Theres a older ranch widow up here she has shot a elk every year uses a 150 hornady in her 30-30. danny

[quietman]

You can try Buffalo Bore's Heavy 30-30. Somehow they manage to get a muzzle velocity of close to 2200 fps out of a 20 inch barrel while shooting a 190 gr bullet.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=222

[86er]

If you are interested in a little more "oomph" than a standard factory load without significant additional recoil, look at the Grizzly Cartridge Co. (www.grizzlycartridge.com 503-556-3006) 170 grain load. It uses a Partition style bullet and has slightly more velocity than standard 170 loads are listed at. You will get the actual velocity standard loads state on the box, but in your 20" barrel using the Grizzly ammo and the bullet is known for great performance. We've shot quite a few animals and were impressed by the performance and accuracy. When we tested the Henry 30-30 rifles our group of forum members shot Remington 170's, Federal 150's and Grizzly 170's. Nobody noticed the difference from one load to the other. Feel free to ask them ...

[Nath]

Bones....what bones bro? Only ribs in the way no?

N.

[Canuck Bob]

I think in the field the heavy weights will be the same practically. I find hunting positions tame my 444 substantially as the body absorbs energy with a longer moment. The 190s will kick a bit harder from a bench but that can be easily managed with extra padding or a weighted bag between butt and shoulder as an example.

In all honesty thousands of moose and elk have fallen in Canada to 170 grain factory loads. My research based on my 32 Special suggests that the Leverevolution bullet is a rapid expander and comparing elk performance to deer performance would be a mistake. You want a stout bullet so make sure your advice comes from someone who has butchered a few moose or elk and can report on bullet integrity.

Someone mentioned a partition style. That would make my short list.

Reduced recoil needs are real and a fine reason to use calibers and rifles like the 30-30. I would put the 30-30 on the list for elk but realize the limitations it causes. Hit were you aim every time with lots of practice and limit your range to under a hundred for me.

[mod71alaska]

I have not used this ammo...I just bought some in .308...but take a look at Remington's "Managed Recoil" ammunition in 30-06. You should get very good performance out beyond 100 yards. Your heavier 30-06 rifle will absorb a lot more recoil than your 30-30 carbine, too. Also, your shoulder will appreciate a slipon Decelorator buttpad put, which ever caliber rifle you use, and a gel shoulder pad by Limbsaver.

Good luck elk hunting! That would be a dream hunt for me! I look forward to your pics.

Victor
Mod71

[Udy]

I vote for the 170gr. Coreloct.
Premium bullets are not necessary at the modest 30-30 velocity. The coreloct will do the job well.
And I do not trust the gummy bullets.

[Yodar]

jkbrea,

What would be a real good idea is let that shoulder rest for a year so it will heal properly.

I used to shoot trap with a retired surgeon who had a shoulder replacement. His doctor said not to shoot anything that recoiled more than a .22LR for a year.

I am not a doctor so do what you want. It is your shoulder but it sounded like good advice to me. The elk can wait.

[J35]

jkbrea,

What would be a real good idea is let that shoulder rest for a year so it will heal properly.

I used to shoot trap with a retired surgeon who had a shoulder replacement. His doctor said not to shoot anything that recoiled more than a .22LR for a year.

I am not a doctor so do what you want. It is your shoulder but it sounded like good advice to me. The elk can wait.

+100

---J

[86er]

Taking this topic in another direction - I am qualified to tell you about shooting with a bad shoulder. The first shoulder replacement I had was around 2000 and in Sept. The doctor said not to shoot anything heavy for at least 6 months. Of course 2 weeks later I did not miss opening day of pheasant season with my 28-guage. I seemed alright with the 28-guage so I continued to hunt, firing only a few rounds each outing when necessary through November. But, when Thanksgiving came around I could not resist hunting the vast waterfowl off the coast of Long Island. The only steel shot around was for 12-gauge but I figured I was fine. 3 days per week for 6 weeks firing from 6 to 20 rounds per outing of full power 12-gauge loads was more that my shoulder could handle. It was constantly inflammed and sometimes tender to the touch. It was send shooting pain up my neck and give me a bad headache. I quit shooting from mid-January to the following fall and the shoulder seemed to settle in. That year I hunted with whatever I wanted to use including 12-gauge, 450NE double rifle, 45-70's, etc. The next summer the shoulder pain was bad and the pain up my neck was unbearable at times. A trip to the doctor showed some extension of meat had gotten under and in the shoulder apparatus and was being pinched. It would then become swollen and push the shoulder parts out of whack. Hence, another surgery. This time I scheduled the earliest time frame available, May. That left 4-months until bird season. I used a 410 for Oct-Nov and shot a handgun for deer season. Feeling fine, I used the 12-gauge for ducks again although I forced myself not to hunt as often. Guess what. I wrecked that new shoulder too and live with chronic shoulder pain. If I shoot 5 shots out of a centerfire anything I have a black and blue shoulder. Pain and headaches will follow. I do not shoot much high volume and tend to use light recoiling firearms if at all appropriate. Back to the rifle questions and scenario you described. You can load your 30-06 with 165 gr @ 2300 fps and it could kick less than the 30-30 with as much or more effectiveness depending on bullets, accuracy, etc. The rifle weight and stock dimensions could mitigate more of the light '06 load than an equivalent load in the 30-30. Best of luck - this is a hard situation for an avid shooter!

[Don McDowell]

Having a lifetimes experience with both the 30-30 and 06, I am at a loss for where the rationalization that loading a 30-06 down to 30-30 levels is going to be any better in the recoil department , or the affectiveness of killing and elk
Ask your doctor about shooting, when my wife had her rotator cuff surgery, the surgeon that did it is a shooter and hunter and he told her flat out before even going into the surgery, that he did not want her to shoot anything bigger than a 22 for at least a year.

[86er]

In my booklet I wrote and edited by John C. Clark 1000 Tags Filled there is data on literally over 1000 animals shot with hundreds of calibers. It documents the bullet weight and ammo brand, caliber, species, range at which shot, how many shots, shot placement, distance animal travelled from first shot to recovery (or not recovered) and whether the bullet exited. You can purchase this in electonic searchable format or hard-copy by PM'in me for instructions if you want one. Anyway, I looked in there for some real-world information about elk and elk sized animals shot with a 30-30 by our clients. I included ungulates that are at least 350 pounds (similar to some cow elk) up to bull elk and like sized ungulates. Here is the data:

Red Deer 150 gr REM 100 yds to shot, 1 shot, 100 yds to recovery

Waterbuck 150 REM 50 yds to shot, 1 shot, 50 yds to recovery, Heart shot

Addax 150 WIN 80 yds to shot, 1 shot, 70 yds to recovery, bullet exited

Bull Elk 150 WIN 45 yds to shot, 3 shots, 100 yds to recovery, Heart shot, no exits

Red Deer 160 HORNADY 50 yds to shot, 1 shot, 44 yards to recovery, bullet exited

Bull Elk 170 GRIZZLY 65 yds to shot, 3 shots, 30 yds to recovery, Heart shot, no exits

Addax 170 HORNADY 60 yds to shot, 2 shots

Red Deer 170 REM 70 yds to shot, 2 shots, 75 yds to recovery

Bull Elk 180 CAST 35 yds to shot, 2 shots, 30 yds to recovery, Shoulder shot, no exit

Pere David 190 BB 78 yds to shot, 2 shots, 60 yds to recovery, Shoulder shot

While this information doesn't prove anything definitively, it gives some realistic comparisons between bullet weights used at different ranges. In this limited amount of info it actually shows that a good 150 grain load at 100 yards or under is more effective that the 170 grain loadings. It also looks like heart shots and exit wounds produce short tracking jobs. But again, this is a very limited sample because we have historically had few clients use a 30-30 on this sized animal for no other reason than coincidence. I think it does reinforce the importance of shot placement and range, like a lot of posts pointed out. Looking at this data, if I were in your shoes I'd shoot whatever ammo the rifle grouped good with and was comfortable for my shoulder and just watch the shot placement and range. Good luck!

[rjohns94]

I use 170gr bullets for all my hunting

[Don McDowell]

Folks that regularly use a 30-30 on elk have little inclination to hire a guide to go do such things, they also chortle a little when they read some expert telling about how the 30-30 is only capable of killing animal x at yardage Y .
One thing your findings do line up with the real world tho, is that an exit wound and elk is usually not a great combination. Elk that have the bullet lumped up under the hide on the far side are generally found within a couple of steps of the bullets impact. Exit wound might be 1/4 mile or more.

[North Country Gal]

Can a 30-30 be used for elk? if you look back to the early days when the 30-30 was the hot new cartridge, it was widely recommended and used for elk as well as bear. As long as you keep the ranges short and as long as you have enough tracking ability, if needed, no reason not to use the 30-30.

I'm with the others, though, that caution you to check with your doctor, first. As a gal that bruises very easily, I can't shoot my Model 94 or my Marlin 336 carbines without some kind of padding on my shoulder or it will turn black and blue after a couple of shots. Yes, the 30-30 has a rep as a mild shooting round, but don't fool yourself - in a light carbine, a 30-30 can have a pronounced bite and produce enough recoil to possibly damage your shoulder. A 22 it ain't. Check with your doctor, first.

[Canuck Bob]

For what it is worth, free and overpriced, the recoil issue concerns me as well due to bone disease from cancer. I bought a 32 Special because the 444 was too much I thought. I have added a PAST shoulder pad and am ordering a Slip-on pad for my 94 for recoil and added LOP. It is a 1951 model so I don't want to add a permanent pad.

One thing has become clear, I can do serious and permanent damage and I will not jeopardize my health. I now do a lot of airgun shooting and added a 22 Hornet, and 32-20 for shooting fun. I dropped hunting until my bones show some repair health if possible.

For the record I'm tough as most guys come, 2 artificial hips, top notch linebacker, 3 knee surgeries, numerous bone breaks and arctic and oilpatch hardened. Today quality of life makes everything but feeding and defending my family as sacrificial for health and welfare. Please be sure you are not prone to damage yourself permanently.

[m.wun]

With a bad shoulder it's going to be rough hauling out a elk size critter?!

[piller]

My older brother who lives in Colorado took his best elk with a .30-30 and 170 grain Remington core-lokt bullets. He complained that the elk didn't fall fast enough. It was running when he hit it and it took 4 shots to pile it up. I asked him the distance it traveled from the first shot to the last, and he said about 30 yards. I have never shot an elk, but 30 yards traveling while being hit 4 times and the elk was running before the first shot sounds as if it worked just fine to me.

[3leggedturtle]

My older brother who lives in Colorado took his best elk with a .30-30 and 170 grain Remington core-lokt bullets. He complained that the elk didn't fall fast enough. It was running when he hit it and it took 4 shots to pile it up. I asked him the distance it traveled from the first shot to the last, and he said about 30 yards. I have never shot an elk, but 30 yards traveling while being hit 4 times and the elk was running before the first shot sounds as if it worked just fine to me.

That's funny, brother sounds like he knows what he doing tho, 4 shots on a running elk in 30 yards. Impressive

[jkbrea]

Thanks for all the replies and advice. It put me at ease in using the 30-30. I started doubting it when I started reading up on the internet. It's amazing what people think is needed for an elk. That's why I like this forum....honest no B.S. answers. I'm going to use a 170 grain bullet and take along my 30-06 just in case I switch to an area thats wide open. I've practiced left handed shots enough that with a steady rest I should be fine.

I checked with my doctor and he said with a good recoil pad plus the PAST shoulder pad the 30-30 should be no problem. My brother and best friend are going so lots of help packing it out. Gotta get it down first though.

I can't wait....

[1894c]

i decided a couple of years ago to standardized on the Winchester .30WCF (30/30) for all of my big game hunting. i presently use Remington 170gr. core-lokt bullets, used these to good effect back-east, so i decided to use them in the Pacific Northwest. my choice in powder is IMR-3031. i also presently own two 1970's Winchester 94 carbines and use a Williams FP receiver sight (going to turn one into a trapper next year, a 16" Win.94 is just about perfect)...

piller -- you are going to have fun with your Marlin 336 and the 30-30, it's like an old friend from the distant past, comfortable, accurate, and familiar... :)

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for all the replies and advice. It put me at ease in using the 30-30. I started doubting it when I started reading up on the internet. It's amazing what people think is needed for an elk. That's why I like this forum....honest no B.S. answers. I'm going to use a 170 grain bullet and take along my 30-06 just in case I switch to an area thats wide open. I've practiced left handed shots enough that with a steady rest I should be fine.

I checked with my doctor and he said with a good recoil pad plus the PAST shoulder pad the 30-30 should be no problem. My brother and best friend are going so lots of help packing it out. Gotta get it down first though.

I can't wait....

Just to help put your mind at a little more ease, here's a pic of a scrawny lil ol elk the neighbor kid shot with his 30-30 a few years ago. The distance was quite a bit past where most internet ballisticians have decided a 30-30 bullet will either simply disenegrate or bounce off of even the tiniest field mouse.