I have been trying to develope a decent practice load for my 71. I have used the rcbs 200 and the lyman 190. I sized to .349 and i am having trouble getting any decent groups, the best being about 3" at 50 yards. The jacket bullets shoot about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inch groups.
The bore is 1/2 thousand over .348.
I would welcome any suggestions.
Thanks,
Mike
348 Cast bullet loads
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Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Elmo, the first thing i would do is see how big you can go on cast bullet diameter that will still chamber. you are trying to fill the throat of the chamber not just be a little over bore size. I have three M71 Brownings and one original M71 and the smallest diameter i shoot out of any of them is .352". i have one Browning that will chamber a .354" (yes a full .006" over jacketed diameter) and groups like a scope bolt rifle using a receiver sight. I like 42.5 grs. Reloader 15 under the Accurate Molds #35-220B sized to fit the rifle's throat for 2200 fps. I also use a 250gr. LBT LCFN with 41.0 grs. Reloader 15 for 2100+ fps. In both these loads i use Precision Reloading's spherical buffer for shotshells (PSB) over the power between the bullet. This takes up the air space and keeps the powder situated where it should be. Reloader 19 also works well but since it takes about 58.0-59.0 grs. to equal the velocity of the RL-15 loads, i don't use it anymore.
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
If I seat the rcbs bullet about ..050" from the crimping groove the bullet is engraved by the rifling. I did try some reloader 15 with the jacketed bullet I will give that one a try with the cast loads. I was wondering about a filler. I have used dacron with my 45-70 loads but was a little worried about using it in the 348. I have some of the bp shot buffer. Maybe I will just seat the gas check and lube the rest with Lee alox.
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Fillers make me nervous in bottleneck cases. Can't provide a direct link, there's a LOT of chatter on the topic and my personal take on all of it is simply that: fillers make me nervous in bottleneck cases.. Instead, I prefer to find a powder that provides a good load at 50% or more of case volume.
Several of my rifles have shown that they like bullets "as cast" over any sizing diameters I tried.
I'm shooting an orig. Win. M-71. My mould is an old Lyman #350447, Gas Check, in a hollow point design. Naked ( no lube or GC) it throws a 50/50 (Pb/WW alloy) 178.5 gn.
The mould was my Father's...I really enjoy the "connection" I feel when using it together with the old Winchester.
There may be better choices, but I'm sticking with this one.
Several of my rifles have shown that they like bullets "as cast" over any sizing diameters I tried.
I'm shooting an orig. Win. M-71. My mould is an old Lyman #350447, Gas Check, in a hollow point design. Naked ( no lube or GC) it throws a 50/50 (Pb/WW alloy) 178.5 gn.
The mould was my Father's...I really enjoy the "connection" I feel when using it together with the old Winchester.
There may be better choices, but I'm sticking with this one.
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
What powder have you been using?
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Things that I "think" have helped me in shooting it's near ballistic twin the 356 Win. with cast loads
-slow burning, case filling powder which fills to or near near bullet base, without compressing
-bullets .001 over
-seating bullet out close to rifling...just starting to engrave. (note I do not even approach max loads but I should be getting about 2100 fps. with my hunting load. You have to use caution and common sense here, carefully considering pressure and danger signs. If my load and dimensions were conducive to the higher pressures or a massive pressure jump, i wouldn't do this)
-make sure you have adequate neck tension..that your neck sizing/belling die leaves a lot of grip to the bullet in the neck. I think this helps the slow burning powder burn more consistently and is also a safety plus to ensure your bullet isn't compressing back into the powder upon chambering/engraving.
-good strong roll crimp over the crimp groove
-Making sure rim thickness is consistent and as close to spec as possible. About half of the rims I measure are really small and leave a good bit more headspace.
-slow burning, case filling powder which fills to or near near bullet base, without compressing
-bullets .001 over
-seating bullet out close to rifling...just starting to engrave. (note I do not even approach max loads but I should be getting about 2100 fps. with my hunting load. You have to use caution and common sense here, carefully considering pressure and danger signs. If my load and dimensions were conducive to the higher pressures or a massive pressure jump, i wouldn't do this)
-make sure you have adequate neck tension..that your neck sizing/belling die leaves a lot of grip to the bullet in the neck. I think this helps the slow burning powder burn more consistently and is also a safety plus to ensure your bullet isn't compressing back into the powder upon chambering/engraving.
-good strong roll crimp over the crimp groove
-Making sure rim thickness is consistent and as close to spec as possible. About half of the rims I measure are really small and leave a good bit more headspace.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Yesterday I posted a reply with what I thought was useful information borne of personal experience with .348 cast bullet loads. I don't see it anywhere. Did I say something wrong? Did I insult someone's sensibilites? I am confused and just a little bit irritated. This has happened before.
"Yodar"
"Yodar"
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Please post it again, I never saw it.
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Yodar I still have 2 or 3 posts floating in space and a post for swisher ticker licker stew that never got to where it should of, dont feel bad it happens to all of us. danny
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Hi Elmo 123,
I understand you are having trouble getting the RCBS 200 grain cast lead bullet for the .348 WCF to group well in your Winchester Model 71. I have had the same problem and finally gave up on said bullet. I won't bore you with loads that didn't work. The only one I found that was halfway decent was 30 grains of IMR-3031 in Winchester cases and primers, OAL=2.79”. Five shot groups at 50 yards ran between 2 and 3 inches from the bench most of the time. Not great, but passable. Average muzzle velocity was 1596 fps, extreme spread was 30 fps, and standard deviation was 11.2 fps.
I have had good results with the following load in the Model 71: Winchester cases and primers; 24 ½ grains of IMR-4198; Lyman #350482, 250 grain, gas check, cast lead bullet; Lee crimped; OAL=2.79”. Typical groups at 50 yards measured around 1 1/2”. Muzzle velocity averaged 1500 fps for five shots, extreme spread was 35 fps, and standard deviation was 13.1 fps for a typical group. The best 50 yard, five shot group I have obtained so far measured 1 3/16”. The only time I tried this load at 100 yards I got a 2 1/2” five shot group off the bench. This load is pleasant to shoot off the bench.
According to Ken Water in his Hand Loader Magazine article “.348 Winchester Pet Loads”,(July, 1976), the .348 did not perform well with cast lead bullets driven much over 1600 fps. Though he found that the Lyman#350482 bullet ahead of 33 grains of IMR-3031 shot well at 1662 fps. I have not tried that load. If you want to experience the full potential of the .348 WCF, I guess you will have to shoot 250 grain jacketed bullets at 2100 to 2200 fps. Not very pleasant shot from the bench.
You might enjoy reading John Kronfeld, article in Hand Loader No. 148, (Nov.-Dec., 1990) entitled “.348 Winchester Heavy Cast Bullets”.
I hope this proves helpful to you. Remember to double check all suggested loads with at least two different sources and approach each load from a a lower powder charge. But, as an experienced and careful you already know all that.
Good luck and keep us posted on your results.
“Yodar”
I understand you are having trouble getting the RCBS 200 grain cast lead bullet for the .348 WCF to group well in your Winchester Model 71. I have had the same problem and finally gave up on said bullet. I won't bore you with loads that didn't work. The only one I found that was halfway decent was 30 grains of IMR-3031 in Winchester cases and primers, OAL=2.79”. Five shot groups at 50 yards ran between 2 and 3 inches from the bench most of the time. Not great, but passable. Average muzzle velocity was 1596 fps, extreme spread was 30 fps, and standard deviation was 11.2 fps.
I have had good results with the following load in the Model 71: Winchester cases and primers; 24 ½ grains of IMR-4198; Lyman #350482, 250 grain, gas check, cast lead bullet; Lee crimped; OAL=2.79”. Typical groups at 50 yards measured around 1 1/2”. Muzzle velocity averaged 1500 fps for five shots, extreme spread was 35 fps, and standard deviation was 13.1 fps for a typical group. The best 50 yard, five shot group I have obtained so far measured 1 3/16”. The only time I tried this load at 100 yards I got a 2 1/2” five shot group off the bench. This load is pleasant to shoot off the bench.
According to Ken Water in his Hand Loader Magazine article “.348 Winchester Pet Loads”,(July, 1976), the .348 did not perform well with cast lead bullets driven much over 1600 fps. Though he found that the Lyman#350482 bullet ahead of 33 grains of IMR-3031 shot well at 1662 fps. I have not tried that load. If you want to experience the full potential of the .348 WCF, I guess you will have to shoot 250 grain jacketed bullets at 2100 to 2200 fps. Not very pleasant shot from the bench.
You might enjoy reading John Kronfeld, article in Hand Loader No. 148, (Nov.-Dec., 1990) entitled “.348 Winchester Heavy Cast Bullets”.
I hope this proves helpful to you. Remember to double check all suggested loads with at least two different sources and approach each load from a a lower powder charge. But, as an experienced and careful you already know all that.
Good luck and keep us posted on your results.
“Yodar”
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Thanks. I have been working with the Lyman 187 cast. RL7 appears to work ok but I am still getting flyers. I havent tried Trailboss yet.
I still have a bruise on my right shoulder from the full power loads with the 200 grain jacketed rounds I fired Wednesday.
Mike
I still have a bruise on my right shoulder from the full power loads with the 200 grain jacketed rounds I fired Wednesday.
Mike
Re: 348 Cast bullet loads
Hi ELMO123,
I thought I would pass on a jacketed bullet load for the .348 WCF that has worked in my Model 71. The Model 71 seems to be picky about what it will group acceptably. I use Winchester cases and primers, 53 grains of IMR-4350, 250 grain Barnes Original jacketed soft point, OAL=2.795”. One fifty yard five shot group measured 1 ¼”. Muzzle velocity averaged 2066 fps, extreme spread was 43 fps, the standard deviation was 15.2 fps. A second five shot group measured 1 3/8”. Muzzle velocity averaged 2072 fps, extreme spread was 35 fps, the standard deviation was 14.8 fps. This would make a good hunting load that approaches the old 250 grain factory load. A half a grain increase or decrease in the powder charge caused the groups sizes to open up. The recoil of this load is a bit stout. Not a load you would want to use for plinking.
One could squeeze a little more velocity out of the old girl with a different load but I do not have any interest in developing a maximum hunting load nor subjecting myself to the abusive recoil. Keep in mind that the listed factory velocities may be just a bit on the optimistic side.
Good luck and be careful. No “hot rodding” of these elderly cartridges.
“Yodar”
(2nd posting)
I thought I would pass on a jacketed bullet load for the .348 WCF that has worked in my Model 71. The Model 71 seems to be picky about what it will group acceptably. I use Winchester cases and primers, 53 grains of IMR-4350, 250 grain Barnes Original jacketed soft point, OAL=2.795”. One fifty yard five shot group measured 1 ¼”. Muzzle velocity averaged 2066 fps, extreme spread was 43 fps, the standard deviation was 15.2 fps. A second five shot group measured 1 3/8”. Muzzle velocity averaged 2072 fps, extreme spread was 35 fps, the standard deviation was 14.8 fps. This would make a good hunting load that approaches the old 250 grain factory load. A half a grain increase or decrease in the powder charge caused the groups sizes to open up. The recoil of this load is a bit stout. Not a load you would want to use for plinking.
One could squeeze a little more velocity out of the old girl with a different load but I do not have any interest in developing a maximum hunting load nor subjecting myself to the abusive recoil. Keep in mind that the listed factory velocities may be just a bit on the optimistic side.
Good luck and be careful. No “hot rodding” of these elderly cartridges.
“Yodar”
(2nd posting)