Watch that cheap factory ammo...

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AJMD429
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Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by AJMD429 »

I got some 'bulk-priced' .308 ammo years ago, and just hung on to it in case I ever got a .308 (other than my 'match-quality' Garand which I fed high-end ammo). I got a Mauser 98 that had been rebarreled more recently, but just shot ammo in it I bought a box at a time here and there.

Recently I had run out of .308 ammo, so remembered I still had all 200 rounds of this .308 I'd never shot, and went to run some through my Mauser 98.

Won't chamber. Hardware-store Remington factory loads do, just as always.

See the little 'ridge' on the shoulder of the case on the right...? I guess it just didn't get fully sized/resized at the ammo factory...???

Image

I haven't decided whether or not to
  • pull and resize and reload it all,
    see if it will easily chamber in my Garand, and if so, shoot it up in that gun, or
    see if I can push it into my .308 sizing die to make it in-spec
The latter option seems like it should be safe, but at a gut-level gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Anyway - I just thought I'd remind folks that SOME of the ammo they may be 'stocking up on' could have 'issues'...
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by iceman »

I would pull the bullet on 1 and resize it to see if it loads ok then. I don't think you could resize a loaded round since the bullet wouldn't permit the case to enter the die. Bottle neck dies make the neck smaller and the resizer button brings it back to the right internal dimension.i guess we do get what we pay for.
They might work fine in another rifle with a slightly larger chamber.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by FWiedner »

Glad you found out it's cr*p before you had to fight off the Revenuers.

Maybe you can still use it for components.

:)
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by AJMD429 »

iceman wrote:They might work fine in another rifle with a slightly larger chamber.
That reminds me I really need to get out my old 'go/no-go' gauges and check my .308's chambers...
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by stew71 »

Thankfully, all of my 7.62 NATO stock is authentic British & Australian military surplus.

Thanks for the reminder AJMD.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by flatnose »

AJ, maybe you are aware that the 308 and the 7.62x51 use different headspace gauges, and the 308 is often and most probably loaded to higher pressures in factory ammo than the 7.62x51 cartridge. I know there was a problem loading the higher than recomemded pressure 30-06 cartridge in the garand.
I have a 98 large ring mauser in 308 win which I purchased many years ago, and will only use mil surp or lower pressure reloads in it. The mauser was originally designed for lower pressure cartridges, and I seem to recall articles about over pressuring the action, and possible safety issues.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by Thunder50 »

Hmmm, I thought the 7.62 x 51 ammo was loaded hotter than the 308 ammo.

I have a bunch of that stuff, but none of mine has that funny ring on the shoulder. In fact, it quite often gives better accuracy than many factory rounds. It is slightly corrosive, but mine is very good ammo. I have shot thousands of rounds of it, over the years. Just have to clean your gun.

You might get a 358 win sizing die, taking out the decapping stem, and resize, so it would work in your gun.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by AJMD429 »

The [url=http://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/M14-FAQs/308.htm]Fulton Armory Website[/url] wrote:
What's the Difference between .308 Winchester & 7.62x51mm NATO?
by Clint McKee and Walt Kuleck

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dumb question i alway thought these 2 ammos where interchangeable but some have told me otherwise whats the story??? jim

Hi, Jim,

This is a perennial topic, kinda like ".45 vs. 9mm" or "Best Guns & Loads for Deer."

They are not the same.

They are the same.

They are not the same, 'cause the .308 Win was released by Winchester several years before the Army standarized the T64E3 as the 7.62MM. You'll get an endless discussion of pressure specs, endless because SAAMI and the Ordnance Dep't measured pressure in different, unrelateable ways. Howver, the chamber drawings are different.

They are the same, 'cause nobody (and Clint's been looking for many years!) makes 7.62MM ammo that isn't to the .308 "headspace" dimension spec. So 7.62MM ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.

But in some 7.62MM rifles the chambers are long (to the 7.62MM military spec), notably the Navy Garands with 7.62MM barrels. Thus, using commercial ammo in such a rifle is not a good idea; you need stronger brass. Use military ammo or the best commercial only, e.g., Federal Gold Medal Match.

Most of the time it's a distinction without a difference. But if you intend to shoot .308 commercial in a military arm chambered for 7.62MM, first check the headspace with .308 commercial gauges first. You may get a surprise.

Best regards,

Walt Kuleck
Fulton Armory webmaster


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clint, What's the difference between .308 Winchester & 7.62x51mm NATO?

Jerry Kuhnhausen, in his classic Shop Manual (available from Fulton Armory; see the M1 Rifle Parts & Accessories or M14 Rifle Parts and Accessories Pages under Books) has published a somewhat controversial recommendation concerning .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO ammo, headspace & chambers. I broached the subject with him some months ago. He had his plate full, so we decided to chat on this in the future. When we do I'll report the results of our conversation.

I completely agree with Jerry that if you have a chamber with headspace much in excess of 1.636 (say, 1.638, SAAMI field reject), you must use only U.S. or NATO Mil Spec Ammo (always marked 7.62mm & with a cross enclosed by a circle) since the NATO mil spec calls for a far more "robust" brass case than often found in commercial (read .308 Winchester) cartridges. It is precisely why Lake City brass is so highly sought. Lake City brass is Nato spec and reloadable (most NATO is not reloadable, rather it is Berdan primed). Indeed, cheaper commercial ammo can fail at the 1.638 headspace (e.g., UMC) in an M14/M1 Garand. Many military gas guns (e.g., M14 Rifles & M60 Machine guns) run wildly long headspace by commercial (SAAMI) standards (U.S. Military field reject limit for the M60 & M14 is 1.6455, nearly 16 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) GO, & nearly 8 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) field reject limit!).

I also agree that 1.631-1.632 is a near perfect headspace for an M14/M1A or M1 Garand chambered in .308 Winchester. But I think that it also near perfect for 7.62mm NATO!

I have measured many, many types/manufacturers of commercial and NATO ammo via cartridge "headspace" gauges as well as "in rifle" checks. If anything, I have found various Nato ammo to be in much tighter headspace/chamber compliance than commercial ammo. Indeed, sometimes commercial ammo can not be chambered "by hand" in an M14/M1A with, say, 1.631 headspace (bolt will not close completely by gentle hand manipulation on a stripped bolt, although it will close & function when chambered by the force of the rifle's loading inertia), though I have never seen this with NATO spec ammo. I.e., if anything, NATO ammo seems to hold at the minimum SAAMI cartridge headspace of 1.629-1.630, better than some commercial ammo!

So, why set a very long 1.636 headspace in an M14/M1A or M1 Garand? It probably is the conflict mentioned above. Military headspace gauges say one thing, SAAMI headspace gauges say something else, as do the spec's/compliance covering ammo. In a court of law, who will prevail? I think Kuhnhausen gave all those who do this work a safe way out. However, I believe it not in your, or your rifle's, best interest. Whether you have a NATO chambered barrel (M14/M1 Garand G.I. ".308 Win."/7.62mm NATO barrels all have NATO chambers), or a .308 Winchester chamber, keep the headspace within SAAMI limits (1.630 GO, 1.634 NO GO, 1.638 FIELD REJECT). This subject is a bit confusing, and for me difficult to explain in a one way conversation!

Clint McKee
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by Old Ironsights »

stew71 wrote:Thankfully, all of my 7.62 NATO stock is authentic British & Australian military surplus.

Thanks for the reminder AJMD.
Likewise. All true milsurp or new Russian (ISO 9002 certified believe it or not) stock. I've never seen ammo boxed like what you show on the right...
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by Cliff »

Good responses here. I do believe I saw an article (possibly in the "American Rifleman" some years back, that put some caution out about surplus military ammo. They explained some of this stuff is on the market as it had some problems, one problem was no primer flash holes, over and under specs. It seems on some ammo, if found defective is remade into blanks or sometimes dumped on the civilian market. I don't remember all that much, but it did say beware of what you buy. I don't remember if they mentioned this was a big problem, rather just a cautionary report. FWIW. Of course it doesn't hurt to do a good chamber casting and a lot of measuring. I do have a 98 Mauser military in 7.62 configuration about the only thing I have found it can be a real kicker some ammo makes. A
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by J Miller »

AJMD429 wrote:I got some 'bulk-priced' .308 ammo years ago, and just hung on to it in case I ever got a .308 (other than my 'match-quality' Garand which I fed high-end ammo). I got a Mauser 98 that had been rebarreled more recently, but just shot ammo in it I bought a box at a time here and there.

Recently I had run out of .308 ammo, so remembered I still had all 200 rounds of this .308 I'd never shot, and went to run some through my Mauser 98.

Won't chamber. Hardware-store Remington factory loads do, just as always.

See the little 'ridge' on the shoulder of the case on the right...? I guess it just didn't get fully sized/resized at the ammo factory...???

Image

I haven't decided whether or not to
  • pull and resize and reload it all,
    see if it will easily chamber in my Garand, and if so, shoot it up in that gun, or
    see if I can push it into my .308 sizing die to make it in-spec
The latter option seems like it should be safe, but at a gut-level gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Anyway - I just thought I'd remind folks that SOME of the ammo they may be 'stocking up on' could have 'issues'...
AJ,

The round at the right, if it came from the white box is not correct. The white box states it's loaded with a 147gr FMJ FULL METAL JACKET. But the bullet with the ring is loaded with soft point.
IF the round on the right came from the white box, then it is most likely mil surp ammo that has had the FMJ bullet pulled and replaced with the soft points.
Check the head stamp ... military ? Y___ N___ If so is it still crimped?
If it is mil surp brass with military primers crimped, I'd suspect the whole lot, pull the bullets, dump the powder, resize them and put a correct powder charge in them.

I would not trust them.

JMHO

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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by harry »

You might look a little deeper into the ammo on the right, the box has 147 FMJ and the cartridge has a spire point bullet in it.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by SteveR »

flatnose wrote: I have a 98 large ring mauser in 308 win which I purchased many years ago, and will only use mil surp or lower pressure reloads in it. The mauser was originally designed for lower pressure cartridges, and I seem to recall articles about over pressuring the action, and possible safety issues.
Do some research...be safe......just sayin'.
You are safe with the 98 action, but the 96 or 94 actions are where the lower pressure becomes something to look at. I have some Swedish 96 actions and depending on what caliber the pressures vary, but are still safe to shoot with any ammo in original chambering. 6.5x55mm, 7mm, 9.3x57mm ect.

But the 98 action is where all the heavy magnums that are used in Africa, are built up from. So the 98 will handle .308 or 7.62x51mm without any problems. Remember the 1903 Springfield's were an almost exact copy of the Mauser 98.

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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by earlmck »

Looking at all the responses, I see you've got all the good advice I could have come up with, AJ. First, like J Miller says, the round doesn't match with what the box says, so the very first thing you need to do is pull a round (I'd do several) to see what they are made of. If somebody just pulled that 147 fmj and replaced it with a 180 grain softpoint you could have a mini-bomb. But if it looks reasonable I'd look around and see if another rifle would chamber the round and shoot 'em up that way.

Actually, this old Scotsman would be more likely to do as Thunder50 suggested: get a 358 sizing die, remove decap stem, and run them in and make them chamber in the rifle I want to use them in (that is, after pulling a few to see what is in there).

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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by Bruce »

AJ,

Do an internet search on the letters and year date on the head. Just a few days ago, I found some info on some imported military surplus 308 (7.62) that was blowing up some firearms.

I typed something along the line of "ABC marked 308 ammunition/brass" and came up with some interesting stuff.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by oneyeopn »

I have some South African 7.62 that I have tried to shoot in my Mauser 98/308 and it chambers fine. the problem is when you go to extract it. the brass stretches into the rifling making it very hard to extract. I have given some to different friends letting them know how it works for me. Some rifles will shoot it some have the same extraction problems, my handloaded 308's shoot great in my rifle without any difficulties. I have pulled a few and figured out if I were to trim just a small amount off of the case mouth they would work great.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by harry »

oneyeopn wrote:I have some South African 7.62 that I have tried to shoot in my Mauser 98/308 and it chambers fine. the problem is when you go to extract it. the brass stretches into the rifling making it very hard to extract. I have given some to different friends letting them know how it works for me. Some rifles will shoot it some have the same extraction problems, my handloaded 308's shoot great in my rifle without any difficulties. I have pulled a few and figured out if I were to trim just a small amount off of the case mouth they would work great.
Got to watch shooting those rubber south african cases :roll:
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by earlmck »

oneyeopn wrote:I have some South African 7.62 that I have tried to shoot in my Mauser 98/308 and it chambers fine. the problem is when you go to extract it. the brass stretches into the rifling making it very hard to extract. I have given some to different friends letting them know how it works for me. Some rifles will shoot it some have the same extraction problems, my handloaded 308's shoot great in my rifle without any difficulties. I have pulled a few and figured out if I were to trim just a small amount off of the case mouth they would work great.
Yikes! That scares me, oneye. The most dramatic pressure extremes I have ever had came about because of cases that had grown a bit too long and interfered with releasing the bullet on firing. The chamber in your rifle must be "sloppy" enough to handle it, but somebody with a tightly chambered rifle could have pressures go way over the top with that "too-long" brass. I wouldn't give them away to anybody I liked, anyway.
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Re: Watch that cheap factory ammo...

Post by AJMD429 »

Bruce wrote:AJ,

Do an internet search on the letters and year date on the head. Just a few days ago, I found some info on some imported military surplus 308 (7.62) that was blowing up some firearms.

I typed something along the line of "ABC marked 308 ammunition/brass" and came up with some interesting stuff.
No luck on that, but the box says "Made in Yugoslavia" and the cases are all "L[ake] C[ity] 81".

I agree with you guys who said it must be remanufactured. I will pull and weigh a bullet, but even if the weight is right, and I assume (yeah, I know) the charge is right, they won't chamber in the one gun I'd really want to fire 'questionable' ammo in (the Mauser is stronger-than-needed for .308 Winchester, has good 'safety' backups in the mechanism, and if it went Kaboom and I didn't, I'd still have my M1A and Garand). I know the M1A and Garand are very strong, but dunno that I'd feel any safer with an over-pressure round in them than the Mauser.

Actually, I think the real issue is likely just the sizing, and that makes me think it wasn't "surplus pulled-and-restuffed" ammo, but probably was actually fired in something, and that stretched the case. Then whoever reloaded it didn't re-size that lot completely.

I also have to wonder with that sort of 'crease' there, how strong the cases are anyway - seems like it would weaken them.

ANOTHER thought is - do you think they could have been fired in a .30-06 with one of those 'chamber inserts' that you put in so you 'convert' your gun to a .308...??? I've seen ads for them and they supposedly stay in place until you use a broken-case extractor to remove them. Never felt safe using one, but seems like they might make a kind of step-off at the shoulder, and could of course leave the once-fired brass a bit too long or short at the shoulder.
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