Cold Weather Boots - A lesson from the pros!

[86er]

I apologize for this information coming late in the winter instead of prior to. What I learned yesterday was enlightening and saved me a lot of money and pain. I hope you get something out of this too. When I hunted CO this year I was facing -7 to -19 degrees at times and on two occassions while lying in wait my toes froze, particularly one big toe that still has little to no feeling on the tip. I was wearing uninsulated boots with good socks. I set out to buy good insulated boots and was able to speak to Rob at the SHOT show. He asked that I not name his company or use his full name, but he has been in the winter boot manufacturing and sales business for 17 years. I told him why I wanted insulated boots and frankly said that Rocky Lynx 800gr Thinsulate boots were on sale for 1/2 price. I was surprised to learn this - 95% of insulated hiking/hunting boots have no insulation from the tip of the toes to approximately 2" over the toes! 50%-75% of the insulation is in the footbed and the remainder is in the shank, heel and two thirds over the top of the foot. "WHAT!", I proclaimed. Why in the heck would there be no insulation in the TOES of all places! Well, the manufacturing process prevents it. Rob said if a boot is offered in insulated and non-insulated and you can visually see the sole is the same on both boots you can bet your lunch money the insulated version does not have any insulation in the toes! Simple explanation - if you add a bunch of insulation on the same sized sole the interior diameter shrinks the amount of insulation. You wouldnt be able to get your foot in there. So in order to get your toes down in the boot, the insulation tapers off. It gets a lot more involved than that but to convince myself that this was indeed accurate info I went about sticking my hand in dozens of boot from different manufacturers that claimed 800gr to as much as 1200gr insulation. Guess what - virtually no insulation around the toes! Rob said there are 3 kinds of boot construction that have insulation around the toes: Full inserts, full boot liners and fully encompassing insulation. The first type uses a sort of boot within a boot. This is the Sorel Caribou style where the felt boot goes into the rubber and leather boot. The second kind is made with an insulted bootie that is attached to the upper before the sole is attached. You can usually tell this because the boot body is quite large and tall. Sometimes this liner is removable. Lastly, the fully encompassing insulation construction is often not attached to the toe area of the boot although it is attached throughout the boot elsewhere. The insulation goes around the toes and tucks underneath where there is a seem that connects it to the footbed or bottom of the boot. The biggest drawback to all these types of boot is bulk and weight. They are not ideal for long distance walking, navigating rocks and slopes or dealing with varying terrain. For the type of cold weather hunting I would do in the West or North West and some other area Rob recommended the following: Regular hiking/hunting boots with no to low insulation and a good pair of socks for walking to the location where sitting will take place. Upon reaching the sitting location he recommends that I 1) change to another pair of good socks, 2) use electric socks over regular socks (carry them with you until you are sitting), and 3) Over-boot insulators (carry them with you until you are sitting). The other thing that was a surprise was his lack of endorsement of Gore-Tex or other water-vapor wicking material. He said unless you need waterproofing and cannot get it any other way the poreous material can work against you. These barriers allow vapor to escape. The vapor was created in the first place by heat and it is in the simplest sense heated gas. If it did not escape, it would remain heated to the maximum temperature it could become within the boots. Excess moisture in the liquid state is what you don't want. That is why you change socks when you get where you are going. As far as the second pair of socks (or heated socks) Rob says you want to take up the air space in the boot and replace it with the insulation of the socks, but you do not want to crush the insulation or cram your foot to the point where it effects circulation. He said I either need to change socks, use heated socks and use over-boot insulators OR carry a pair of properly insulated cold weather boots in a backpack or attached to a light frame. His recommendation for cold weather boots with proper toe insualtion include but is not limited to: Irish Setter Sno-Hound Pac Boots; Sorel Caribou Boots; Keen Summit County Pac Boots; Cabelas Trans Alaska III. For a combo of heated socks and over-boot insulators he recommended: Heated Wader and Boot Socks marked Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks Sporting Goods etc, and Arctic Shield Boot Insulators or Ice Breaker Insulated Boot Blankets.
http://www.onyxoutdoor.com/product/3744 ... er_-_Black

http://www.icebreakerinc.com/php/boot.php

http://www.thewarmingstore.com/battery- ... tgodBAPYiQ

Goodbye frozen toes! I am going to use my Sorel Caribou Boots with heated socks and good merino wool socks for short range walking and sitting. When walking distances and then sitting I will carry merino wool socks, battery powered heated socks and over-boot insulators in my pack (a total of 3.3 pounds w/ batteries). I hope this helps save someone's toes - and keeps you from wasting money on boots that will leave your toes frozen anyway.

[2ndovc]

Good stuff Joe.

My former father in law told me to get a good felt pack boot and wool socks for sitting on those deer
blinds for hours and hours. Still have them. But you're right about the fack they kinda suck for
hiking and climbing. Went the heated sock route after that. Need a new pair of good hiking boots.

jb

[Don McDowell]

Most of the trouble folks have with cold feet is to much insulation, your feet sweat and then the cold really sets in. Your feet in sweaty boots are just like having to much sleeping bag, once you get hot and sweat the cold settles in.
200 grams of thinsulate is a plenty when worn with good socks.
In the really severe cold you will have cold feet no matter what boots you wear, but it's always best to go with the least you can get by with if your doing physical activity.

[kimwcook]

Excellent information, Joe. When I roustabouted in the oilfields of North Dakota building oil pumping stations. I worked outside all day long. There were really only one pair of boots one could wear all day in -20 to -30 degree ambient temperatures and not worry about freezing your feet. Those were the legendary military "Bunny Boots". Big, bulky and hard to walk in, but you got used to them. Sorel's, which I had and learned the hard way, would heat your feet up to hot, while working and moving about. You'd sweat and soak the felt inserts. Your feet would then quickly freeze. The only way they'd work is to have a supply of replacement inserts and change them out after a time before they got to wet and your feet started suffering. I'm talking extreme cold temps. Warmer temps would only make the heat situation worse and results quicker. Bunny boots would keep your feet warm even with them soaking wet. You just ended up with wet feet.

[crs]

All makes sense to me!

Or you could just hunt in Texas where temperatures rarely go below zero.

[stickfred]

Good information Joe and thanks.
When my dad came back from being stationed in Thule, Greenland he brought back a pair of oversized wool felt booty looking things that he said they wore up there. Not sure if this is kimwcook's Bunny Boots but wish I had 'em with me now.

[Mac in Mo]

I have been using the Hot Hands heat packs since they came out with them. I have always had trouble with hands and feet getting cold quickly. These little heaters have, for me, been the best thing to come on the market in my lifetime. I still just use the original size/shape made for your gloves, but I use them in my boots as well. I put them under the arch of my foot,outside of the sock. They feel lumpy at first but quickly conform to shape.

I only put them in my boots when I am going to sit in freezing or below. If it gets above that they can make your foot feel clammy while walking. I use synthetic socks, so this feeling goes away soon after stopping. I have them in my gloves even in the forties. I use thin gloves and my hands need them.

I stock up on these things at the end of each season and have them stashed everywhere. I absolutely love them.

Kevin

[dave in maine]

go to ll beans and get their insulated hunting boot no muss no fuss leather upper with a rubber bottom good for life, with no questions asked.

[Pitchy]

We`ve tried a many a boot here in Mn over the years and finally found boots that keep the feet warm and toasty.
The black or white military rubber bunny boot, like kim said they are rubber on the inside so nothing to soak up sweat.
Fleet farm, and other military stores sell them for around 35 bucks and they are well worth it.
We even snowshoe with them and they work good, we like them a lot.

[madman4570]

Great research Joe and will keep that in mind,
Also you other guys have some real good ideas too.
Seems also if you get boots that are still (just a tad big)with two quality pairs of boot socks that alows plenty of room to wiggle your toes it really helps when sitting for long periods.
I noticed that when I had my 1200gram insulated Wolverine Gortex leather boots that maybe were normal tight like you would have say with a pair of running sneakers(for me size 12 D width)no a lot of toe wriggle room my feet got cold.
Plain rubber boots that run a little big with two pair of heavy socks(good to go)?

I will have to go downstairs and see what the pair is my brother got for ATV riding????
Think they are rated for -60 degrees???
Problem is when I put them on I look like a Yeti and boy are they cumbersome for walking!

[madman4570]

Got em---------as I type, They are Baffin Technology
They are monsters You should see the inserts
Polar Explorers are they are rated---------

-148 degrees F (-100 C)

[stickfred]

-148 degrees F (-100 C)

I wish I'd had a boot that warm when I was riding a motorcycle!!

[mod71alaska]

Excellent information, Joe. When I roustabouted in the oilfields of North Dakota building oil pumping stations. I worked outside all day long. There were really only one pair of boots one could wear all day in -20 to -30 degree ambient temperatures and not worry about freezing your feet. Those were the legendary military "Bunny Boots". Big, bulky and hard to walk in, but you got used to them. Sorel's, which I had and learned the hard way, would heat your feet up to hot, while working and moving about. You'd sweat and soak the felt inserts. Your feet would then quickly freeze. The only way they'd work is to have a supply of replacement inserts and change them out after a time before they got to wet and your feet started suffering. I'm talking extreme cold temps. Warmer temps would only make the heat situation worse and results quicker. Bunny boots would keep your feet warm even with them soaking wet. You just ended up with wet feet.

Absolutely + 1 from my personal experience winter bush flying in Alaska. Be careful of "knock-offs" of the white bunny boot. They are NOT the same as the superb military white bunny boot and your feet will freeze in them. Check with the Army Navy Store in Anchorage for the real ones. Sorel type packs are good for short periods of exposure. As the felt liners and insoles get more and more damp, however, they become increasingly dangerous for your feet to freeze.

If I were looking for the ultimate extreme cold weather boot for long exposure, in addition to the military white bunny boots I'd check with Iditarod mushers and find out what they wear running that 1000 mile dog sled race.

Thanks for the excellent post, Joe. I hope your big toe eventually thaws out! You probably know that once frozen they are very susceptible again.

[junkbug]

These are what people who lived in really cold weather used in former times. They are not perfect, the rubber overshoes are not that tough, and these things start to fall apart if thy get wet. ot bad to keep in the pack, though.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russian-Valenki ... 4ab2cb4420


I believe in WWII, German soldiers would saw the legs off of dead frozen Russian infantrymen and heat them up, just so they could get these felt boots. Their leather jackboots were almost worthless in real cold.

Russian soldiers would also always be issued regular boots oversized by western standards. In the summer they wore thick cotton or linen foot wraps instead of sock, in the winter they switched to wool. In an emergency, they would stuff their boots with dry straw. I've actually tried dry straw; it helps. But I've never been in sub zero (Farenheit) cold. Only single positive digits.

[tomtex]

I think this vender , can help youhttp://www.wiggys.com, Special Military units buy here.

[cshold]

Good info. Joe and thanks for the thread, can never get enough
good tips to help prevent cold hands & cold feet. (especially the feet)
The fact I'm sure we all can agree on is this, once the feet get cold it's
about over for an enjoyable cold morning still hunt.

[Bigahh]

Thanks Joe ! I love my Rocky "Deer Hunter Extreme 2 " Boots. They are for sitting, and I leave them right in the woods in a large tote with my clothes, and extra socks for our 9 day Hunt. They are no longer made, and are not for walking. I plan on checking out the boots you suggested for walking as I also do that during our sometimes cold Wisconsin Deer Seasons.

[madman4570]

-148 degrees F (-100 C)

I wish I'd had a boot that warm when I was riding a motorcycle!!

http://www.baffin.com/product-p/40000139.htm
Tested and proven in the North/South Pole!

[stickfred]

Tested and proven in the North/South Pole!

Where was the Internet back then. I could have saved my toes a lot of agony...especially wearing steel toed boots(though they did come in handy from time to time).

[pokey]

ahorseback is where my feet get coldest.
hard to fit a stirrup and stay warm.
got a set of these and they come close,
sometimes too much of a good thing though.

whiteselkguidepacs.jpg

[handirifle]

-148 degrees F (-100 C)

I wish I'd had a boot that warm when I was riding a motorcycle!!

I'd try a good pair of boots flexible enough to work the pedals and shifter, and large enough to comfortable fit elec socks. Adapt the socks to work off the bike battery, and use them like you would heated gloves. I'm surprised no one has invented them yet, assuming they haven't.

[Glenn]

Wear a pair of polypropylene (sp?) socks or socks that contain that against your foot, and wool socks for the outer layer. The poly(whatever) wicks the moisture away from your feet so they will stay warm after a hike into the tree stand. And yeah, I've hunted in below-zero here in Colo. more than once. Polyprop long johns too - wicks the sweat away when you stop at the stand. Don't leave home without it!
Glenn

[BigSky56]

Ive been using for 2 winters now Keen winter sport ll snow pacs they are rated to -25 and only weigh 3 lbs a pair. I wore them last year when I was in the Horse Prairie south of Big Hole and it was 20 below and I was on a horse chasing elk, this year I was on a horse in 10 below all day after elk feet stayed warm both times. they are a slip on pac with a drawstring on the top and the foot has a draw string best described as lace to toe so you can tighten up your instep as the one failing of most snow pacs is foot movement. 200 grams insulation and water proof to the top. One of the problems most people have is they put on a boot jump in the truck with the heat on and drive for a hour then get out and hunt with sweaty boots thus cold feet. wear your slippers driving put your boots on when you get there carry extra medium weight wool socks. I have used whites, hoffman and sorel snow pacs I dont like the weight and loose fit and they dont hold solid when you side hill.To much insulation in a boot is grief to, better to layer your feet for warmth like you do for your body. danny

[Griff]

All makes sense to me!
Or you could just hunt in Texas where temperatures rarely go below zero.

Ever the practical solution! Tho' big elk are scarce!

[1894c]

deeply appreciate the post--always take an xtra pair of socks... :)

[Canuck Bob]

It was -35C/-31F here last week while I was working the bush. My experience includes north of the Arctic Circle. If cold is an issue go with the felt liner pac style, they used to be called snowmobile boots as well. They are clumsy at first but you will soon adapt. I use an Eddie Bauer pair made by Sorel. Sorel are very popular in Canada. It is all you see in the north in bitter weather. Just like sleeping bags used in real cold you must dry the felt liner or you will freeze your feet. Days done and liner goes near heat to dry out with your socks and mitts. I've seen felt liners frozen solid to the boot!

Second cold feet tip is keep your legs warm. Good long johns under pants that are not too tight is a good start. The old timers wore those heavy weight wool trousers for good reason. I wear long johns and loose jeans then put on coveralls and my Danner work boots are ok to 20 below. And an old saying here is if you want warm feet put on a warm hat. I also carry a foam bum pad to insulate my rump when I'm sitting.

[BobM]

Last year I bought a pair of Schnee's hunting boots with Thinsulate/felt liners. I've used them on stands with good results. They fit well so far for the walking I've done.

[Old Time Hunter]

Most of the trouble folks have with cold feet is to much insulation, your feet sweat and then the cold really sets in. Your feet in sweaty boots are just like having to much sleeping bag, once you get hot and sweat the cold settles in.
200 grams of thinsulate is a plenty when worn with good socks.
In the really severe cold you will have cold feet no matter what boots you wear, but it's always best to go with the least you can get by with if your doing physical activity.

Well said Don, my choice is Sorel Men's 1964 Premium T Classic's. From +5'F up just wear a pair of sweat socks, under that I might put a pair of good wool socks over the cotton sweats. Also wear 'em big with plenty of room. First pair lasted from '67 to about '75, then they grew too small, the current pair I bought in '76 (size 12 1/2) and let my feet grow into them. Change the liners every couple of years. Got stuck in a white out for two days back in '86, temperature never broke 0'F and dropped to -33'F overnight, feet were fine. Other parts got a bit chilly though as all I had was a thermal blanket (looks like tin-foil) and a snowmobile suit.

[Marlin32]

I buy boots of the lowest insulation I can find. Do a lot of bird hunting even in extreme weather, (if snow then usually have the sorel type on) socks is what gets it done.
If going to be real cold, wear a poly sock liner, then wool or wool blend, but it better be pretty cold. Down side of the Sorel type is they don't have much in the way of support for me. Lot of walking, not sure feet and ankles would take it.

If deer hunting, same set up, but have the over boot insulators. Great for deer stand hunting.
Uninsulated boot, wool sock then over boot insulators ( I think they are arctic sheild?) But they work!!! Be a bit more of a pain walking and then sitting etc. But they work.
Electric socks scare me, I would think you would sweat too much, and that is bad thing.

Better have some sort of water resistance or it will be short hunt. Whether that be gore-tex, or silicone or other water treatment on boots.

[KirkD]

I have different boots depending upon how cold it is and what I'm doing. I grew up in central Manitoba, 200 miles north west of Winnipeg and being on a beef farm, worked outdoors no matter how cold it was forking hay for 200 head or cutting trees all day for firewood most winter Saturdays. 30 or more below zero was very common, 50 below zero is my personal record for working outside, 95 below zero counting the wind chill on another ridiculously cold occasion (all temperatures in Fahrenheit). For really cold weather I always go for a boot that has a completely removable felt 'sock' that is about half an inch thick or more and comes up to just below the knee. Even better if it has a shiny Mylar insole inside the rubber outer lower boot to reflect heat back up into the foot. At the end of the day, I always remove the felt sock. No matter how dry and toasty it seems when wearing the boot, they should always be removed and dried at the end of the day.

[preventec47]

Can anyone speak from experience about how well
the battery powered heated socks work ?
I find it hard to believe that if the D -Cell battery
lasts for 6 or 8 hours that any perceptible
heat would be generated in the socks. So are
they in fact a scam or not?
What I would believe is if someone created a sock with
a plug and wire that ran up the leg to your belt where
a heavy duty 18 or 24 volt lithium battery used in
Dewalt tools like drills and saws etc. was plugged
into a belt attached battery receptor. I knew a guy
once that rigged that kind of setup to fire his big
ole camera flash. Those portable tool batteries
would be perfect for this kind of thing.

[KirkD]

I've never tried the battery powered socks, but your idea should work. However, when I go into the bush in extreme cold weather, there is always the thought in the back of my mind that something could happen and I could be stuck out there for a lot longer than what I planned. For this reason, I prefer not to depend on batteries, preferring rather to dress in the type of clothes that can keep me alive indefinitely.

[preventec47]

One thing not mentioned specifically that is super important
is blood circulation. The easiest thing in the world would be to
loosen the laces in your boots whenever you get to your stand
and hope that the rest of the boot is large enough to allow
no constriction on your feet.
This presents a paradox and is how I learned this,
many years ago when I was anticipating a very cold day
I put on an extra pair of socks with boots that were not
big enough to allow them. My feet were so constricted
that all benefit of extra socks was given away to lack
of blood flow.

The other problem with loose boots and boots with
lots of insulation is blisters that will form on long treks
because of your feet slipping and turning inside the boots.
I found that applying very wide bandage tape or
something called adhesive moleskin over the areas
likely to blister would prevent the blisters.

[marlinman93]

I live about a mile from the Danner Boot Co. factory, and I've worn Danners for over 30 yrs. now. Always get a good deal at their summer sale, and rarely replace them, as they've lasted so long. I think the pair I have presently is about 10 yrs. old, and doesn't get used more than to just go hunting or hiking outdoors.
I get them with the Gortex lining and 600g Thinsulate, and even in -20 degree weather I've never had any issues with my feet getting too cold. There are times when they get too warm, but it's got to be pretty warm out to have that problem.
I find it odd to hear a manufacturer's rep saying a boot can't have insulation in the toe because it will change the size of the boot. Danners have a complete sock type insulated waterproof liner inside and the boots are simply built slightly larger to accomdate the extra insulation, and still fit properly. You can go to their web site and see how this sock style liner is built in one piece before the boot is made and then the boot is actually built around the liner. There's an equal amount of insulation in any part of a Danner from the toe to the ankle or higher. Look at the site and click on "Gortex lining" to see how they make the insulated liner:
http://standards.danner.com/

I have no tie to Danner, but I've always loved their boots.

[tomtex]

Its this simply, if you want the best, then go to http://www.wiggys.com, they're boots have been tested all over the world. Look for leg & footwear, also look under Pet wear, for jacket made for Air force guard dogs .

[MacEntyre]

I make gear for winter camping... here is a suggestion that is traditional, but not for everyone.

For the last two years, I have been using Chippewa style Mukluks for temps below 20*F. Mukluks are primarily for use with snow shoes, but I've used them for hiking in snow and on frozen ground as well. Two weeks ago, I used them for three days at Sturgeon Lake, MN, at -20*F.

Mukluks are nothing but a leather moccasin with a canvas upper. Inside is a wool felt liner, or a 'duffle sock' made of thin wool felt, as well as a wool felt insert. I've never had a hint of cold feet with either configuration. On your feet are just two pair of wool socks. Mukluks are so roomy and light, it feels like you are barefoot! The key to the success of mukluks is that they are perhaps the most vapor permeable of all footwear. Of course, they do not work at all when temps are high enough to allow wetness on the ground... hence, I use them below 20*F.

- MacEntyre

[Dawg]

This is what I use...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL_svz99Kok

Bought the first pair around 1973, and just replaced them two years ago. Back in 1984 while deer hunting in the U.P. of Michigan in the swamps, I stepped onto thin ice, and both feet sank deep enough that water went over the tops of the boots. It was not that cold out, maybe low 20's. All I did was find a dry spot, sat down, took off the boots, put on a dry pair of socks, and wrang out the liners and put em back on, and I was good to go.

It took me about a half hour to get out of the swampy area to a dry spot to sit, and my feet never got cold enough to give me any concern. I was fine for the rest of the day. I always keep a spare pair of liners around, and rotate them out every day.