Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

[wavetrain75]

A lever gun would sure beat a sharp stick in the eye. But you have to look at the hisiorical significance of the Garand: Semi automatic. The ability to shave a fraction of a second off of followup shots can be a big deal if someone is actually shooting back.

I'd feel ok with a lever gun. I'd feel better with an AK.

[Rexster]

True. You will be handing those extra guns out to former gun haters who have had a change of heart.

One item to think about is handiness. In a defensive situation, you'd just be sitting there and it wouldn't matter how heavy the gun or ammo is, so a nice heavy .308 battle rifle is just the thing. Or even one of those Barretts. But if you are moving (assuming gasoline supplies are short), handiness becomes important. Then, maybe one of those little trapper Marlins in .32H&R would be just the thing (does anyone make a .327Mag levergun yet?). Can carry a lot of ammo like that. Keep in mind when you are moving, a gun is likely not the only thing you are carrying.

Also, in urban scenarios like ferfal talks about, if you have any rifle at all, a little .357 or .32 trapper would be a nice inconspicuous one. Could hang it from a strap under an overcoat, or something like that.

This is very important! Unless I am part of the mightiest force in the land, and with that force at a given moment, I may well have to run for a LONG way during bad times. If caught away from the homestead, hiding is best, but what if that doesn't work? I can hold a BLR or similar lever rifle at its balance point, in one hand, and run for miles. Don't tell me about slings; I know about slings. I also live near brush country, and near a place called the Big Thicket. The only good slings are ones that can be quickly detached.

Col. Jeff Cooper's ideas on scout rifles and their use are applicable in this case. I am not meaning that a lever rifle, or a true "scout" rifle, is the only or best rifle for the guy who wants to remain low-profile or hidden/discreet, but a perusal of the scout rifle concept is a good read. A "scout" wants to remain hidden, and if he must shoot, he wants to shoot once or twice and then get out of the area, before a coordinated effort to pinpoint him can be launched.

Col. Cooper indicated that two kilograms is a good weight for a scout rifle. A lever rifle often meets that weight standard. Col Cooper wrote that a scout rifle, by its configuration, carries well in one hand at its balance point, allowing the scout to move quickly. Well, most lever rifles carry well in one hand at their balance points, whether they have iron sights, or forward-mounted scopes.

A lever rifle, or bolt-action, is not necessarily the best weapon for a close-range emergency against multiple opponents. No argument there. That is what pistols are for. While an autoloading rifle may be best for such close-range emergencies, one also has to lug that heavier rifle when not engaged in such emergencies.

Just to be clear, there are light and handy autoloading rifles, such as my Mini-14 Ranch Rifles, and I am glad to have them as well as my BLRs.

[AJMD429]

A lever rifle, or bolt-action, is not necessarily the best weapon for a close-range emergency against multiple opponents. No argument there. That is what pistols are for. While an autoloading rifle may be best for such close-range emergencies, one also has to lug that heavier rifle when not engaged in such emergencies.
Just to be clear, there are light and handy autoloading rifles, such as my Mini-14 Ranch Rifles, and I am glad to have them as well as my BLRs.

I was just thinking that the "Thoughts on the Ruger Mini-14" thread was exploring some of these same concepts; "handiness vs. accuracy" in that case, and "handiness vs. firepower" in this one. I have to admit, much as I like leverguns and AR-15's, the little Mini-14 has alot going for it in both arenas.

It would be fun to set up a 'bowling-pin' style postal match, with terrain and obstacles to negotiate, day and night light, multiple distances and 'good/bad' pins and so on to make it less of a 'target' and more of a 'combat' match, then see how well it could be negotiated with say, a .357 Mag, a .44 Mag, a .30-30, & a .45-70 levergun, a Mini-14, AR-15, M1A, & a Garand. If someone supplies the ammo and loans me the guns I don't have, I'll volunteer to do a 'test' run...!

Realistically, most folks will be with family or friends, so there WILL be more than one firearm, whether you're talking about earthquake aftermath, post-terrorist chaos, or just excaped convicts loose from the nearby prison. If that's the case, it makes sense to at least have two types of firearm, anyway - perhaps three.

• There are times a .22LR is the BEST answer - cheap ammo, quiet, easy to shoot. For a .22 LR you're not reloading, so no reason NOT to have a semiauto in case it needs to be used against a home intruder vs other more typical .22 LR uses.
  
  Other times, it would be hard to beat the non-picky-about-ammo .357 or .44 levergun - plenty of power and accuracy out to 100 yards, non-intimidating, 'PC' looks, cases reload forever with moderate loads and a huge variety of powders, and enough firepower for several home intruders at once if it came to that.
  
  Sometimes, you might want something to 'reach out there' in a survival situation, whether for hunting or for home/farm defense, and you might want it to be fairly powerful. It would be hard to beat a 7mm Rem Mag or thereabouts for such a purpose, although a .308 would certainly work, and a .35 Whelen or .444 Marlin could share bullets with your levergun. Again, since that gun could be pressed into 'close quarters' duty, a semiauto like an M1A would perhaps be ideal.
  
  Finally, if a true 'close quarters' situation happened and there were multiple assailants, like unfortunately can happen in chaotic urban post-disaster, post-terrorism, or wartime situations, who wouldn't want something along the AR-15 (...or yes, the Mini-14 ) line? True, fit the 'carbine' AR with a longer barrel and scope, and it could do 'double duty' as that 'reach out there' gun, and it certainly could perform as a home-defense gun, but you get back to a more picky gun about ammunition, and a harder to reload with 'scratch' components cartridge.

So...if you had say a Ruger 10/22, a .44 Mag levergun, a M1A, and an AR-15 carbine, they'd all have a place, and aside from parts/inventory issues, you'd be glad to have them all available. Hopefully, between you and your immediate family or friends, you would have guns similar to each for your collective benefit. Could you get by with 'just one' - probably. ANY one - probably. WHICH one would depend on which of the 'bad times' you expected, how long it was likely to last, and what type and number of adversaries you might be worried about. Stranded on an island for a year with an allowance of 10 pounds of gun/ammo, I'd take a Ruger 10/22 'Charger' and bunches of ammunition, as long as there weren't man-eaters around!

Still, these threads are interesting ways to pass a bad-weather afternoon, not only to get out of doing chores, but to exchange ideas and ways to try to get the most versatility out of the guns we own. If they'd just make a semi-auto, 30-round-magazine, .475 Linebaugh carbine that shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards, and shot saboted .308 bullets accurately out to 750 yards, we'd all be happy...! (...then we could argue about peep sights vs. scopes on it, or wood vs. synthetic stocks... )

[Bill_Rights]

On introducing new shooters,

AJMD429 said:
and a .22 LR levergun is probably the BEST 'first gun' to have any kid OR adult shoot. Within an hour, they'll be confident and having enough fun...

and I agree. Unfortunately, I don't have a .22 lever and my dad's .22 slide pump (which is a hoot to shoot!) is still at Mom's house to chase off varmints. BUT I start new people out with a .22 Beretta NEOS pistol. It's semi-auto (blow-back, accepts only .22LR) that is almost target-grade weight, so kick is light. Never once had a newbie shoot up a mag of 10 shots and not say, "Is that all? Can I do it again?"

The only "problem" with the gun is that folks blow through 10 shots so quickly that I had to buy four extra mags, and one or two people need to stay busy stuffing mags to keep the show on the road. It is not uncommon to go through 300 rounds between 2-3 people in one outing. That's still a cheap date, though. And at ~$150 on sale, new, the pistol itself is a pretty affordable "vehicle" to take dates in!

[Lawyer Daggit]

I figure if a situation arises where a military semi auto is necessary it will wind up being issued, or an opportunity shall arise where I can get my hands on one.

I also view the world stage issues likely to call for a firearm to be ecomomic.

I figure my MLR .308 and 94 in .30-30 would be the guns I reached for- along with a little .22 Marlin 39 TDS- a trapper version of the model 39( to keep the family supplied with rabbits and duck).

[Molasses]

So...if you had say a Ruger 10/22, a .44 Mag levergun, a M1A, and an AR-15 carbine, they'd all have a place, and aside from parts/inventory issues, you'd be glad to have them all available.

IOW, a survival battery.
Gets back to Hobie's comment pretty early in the thread...

[O.S.O.K.]

The comments about the mini-14 made me think about available rifles. And I would put my Saiga .223 up against any mini-14 for reliability, ruggedness and accuracy - any day. And they are less expensive to purchase.

Mine is converted to a pistol grip (standard AK) configuration - a very simple process if you have the most basic of tools.



I also installed a Romanian folding stock (simple switch-out) to make it even handier.

I also modified the front trunion block a bit so that it now accepts 5.45x39 mags, making it more versitile. The mag shown there is a Sure Fire and all that I've used with this have given 100% so far - 7 mags.

This rifle can shoot from 1.5" to 3" groups at 100 yards depending on the ammo - the 3" is with Wolf steel-cased junk.

Here is what a stock model looks like - and is perfectly servicable as-is:

[kid_couteau]

WOW that is creepy

I just ordered one of those Saigas in 7.62x39

Gonna try to put a tang sight on it.

Kid

[O.S.O.K.]

WOW that is creepy

I just ordered one of those Saigas in 7.62x39

Gonna try to put a tang sight on it.

Kid

Check this out - http://www.tech-sights.com/



That's the way I'd go if I wanted an aperture sight on my AK's - $125 though...

And if you are interested in doing a pistol-grip conversion: http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/index.htm

[Grizz]

OK I'll check up on the Saigas. My question still gets me whipsawing back and forth between 5.56 and 7.62. Everyone is impressed by the 30-30 as an all-round rifle, the 7.62 is sometimes compared to 30-30; so is that so, as far as terminal performance is concerned? Don't hear many stories about how many deer have been taken with 7.62 and how fast they went down, that kind of stuff.

Then there's the 5.56 which seems to me like a high velocity .22. I've read comments about how they perform against coyotes and down, but don't hear much about their hunting exploits either.

My questions are in the context of the topic as a bad-times-rifle and comparing to known effects of our leverguns.

I've been considering getting an underfolder ak47, the saiga opens up the possibility of 5.56/223. I guess the question boils down to which is the better zombie/hunter combo gun? And since there IS a charging lever on the semiauto, it's not ENTIRELY off topic, is it?

I'd appreciate some thoughts on the caliber question. I get the ammo weight/quantity points, I'm interested in other practical rifle comments.

Thanks

Grizz

[Gary]

OK I'll check up on the Saigas. My question still gets me whipsawing back and forth between 5.56 and 7.62. Everyone is impressed by the 30-30 as an all-round rifle, the 7.62 is sometimes compared to 30-30; so is that so, as far as terminal performance is concerned? Don't hear many stories about how many deer have been taken with 7.62 and how fast they went down, that kind of stuff.

Then there's the 5.56 which seems to me like a high velocity .22. I've read comments about how they perform against coyotes and down, but don't hear much about their hunting exploits either.

My questions are in the context of the topic as a bad-times-rifle and comparing to known effects of our leverguns.

I've been considering getting an underfolder ak47, the saiga opens up the possibility of 5.56/223. I guess the question boils down to which is the better zombie/hunter combo gun? And since there IS a charging lever on the semiauto, it's not ENTIRELY off topic, is it?

I'd appreciate some thoughts on the caliber question. I get the ammo weight/quantity points, I'm interested in other practical rifle comments.

Thanks

Grizz

A friend and I went out plinking together. He with a AR15 in 5.56 and I with my 7.62X39 Yugo 59/66. At 75 to 100 yards we were shooting at some rocks in the desert that ranged in size from a football to about 12" in diameter. When his rounds hit the rocks, it made nice clouds of dust. When my Yugo hit the rocks, the rocks shattered.

He was shooting Wolf ammo and I had WWB FMJ. I shot a lot more ammo than he did that day because he kept having stovepipes and FTF.

[MrMurphy]

7.62X39mm is generally full metal jacket. .30-30 is generally softpoint. That's like comparing trucks to sports cars.

The .30-30 keeps all it's weight and doesn't generally tumble. The 7.62 has to tumble or it doesn't do much other than poke a straight hole.

Most common AK loads in 7.62X39mm found in the US just zip right through. The common 5.56mm loads (M193, what we used up to the 80s, and M855, the current load) tumble. The older M193 performed better on people, the 855 performs better on barriers/body armor, by design.

Hit a guy in the body with 5.56 somewhere important, it will generally do the job. A solid center mass hit from 7.62 out of an AK will certainly get the job done (they have, and continue, to kill people worldwide) and when shooting through light barriers, are superior. But the Russians went over to the prone-to-lots-of-tumbling 5.45mm round 30 years ago for the same reason we did. Lighter, more accurate (especially between the 2 AKs) and generally hits hard. Russian special operations troops have always kept some of the older caliber AKs around more or less for the same reason we do the M14, barrier penetration.

But the common 7.62 you'll find in the US for AKs just isn't all that impressive unless you hit something vital right on the dot. The Russians have continued to upgrade and develop ammo for all their loads, and tailor specific loads for specific jobs. Most regular troops get the usual stuff, but some of their specialized loads match performance wise, anything currently on the US civilian market for defense.

Between the two, i'd take 5.56, but that said, I have owned an AK and inside 150 for the average shooter with stock irons, it'll get the job done. The Tech Sights look to be a major improvement, making most AKs capable of the type of shooting (although the general quality isn't there, the sight radius is) that a Sako M90 or Valmet is.


Shattering rocks is great if you're being attacked by rocks....otherwise, it has no bearing on rifle performance.

As to his stovepipes and failures.....tell him to replace the magazine or check his springs.

[Rexster]

Nothing wrong with Saigas, except that they are a bit vertically-built. I still like the slimness of a Mini-14, and its line-of-sight being so close to the bore axis.

[O.S.O.K.]

I have a CZ 527 (IIRC) in 7.62x39 and I load 150 spire points for it - 2100 fps. Just a tad behind the 30-30. Think of it as being a 30-30 with 50 yards less reach.

The 7.62x29 fmj ammo is desinged to milspec and tumbles after about 4-5" of penetration. 125 grain bullets at 2350-2400 fps.

If you want to up the ante, go with a 308 Saiga. I've got one of those too - its accurate, reliable and handy.

[Arminius]

Nothing wrong with levers, but for a backup gun, there´s exactly ONE caliber:

the 9 mm.

Luger, Parabellum, 9 x 19 ...

And I DO NOT buy that the primary and backup gun should have the same caliber!!

Better you are able to use two different cartridges ....

.30 - 30 carbine and 9 mm handgun with a light, but accurate .22 - that´s it!

The cleaning supplies alone for an AR would cost and weight down you dearly!!

IMHO the Ruger Single action in .357 and 9 mm would be a mighty good gun to have!

just MO, Hermann

[Old Ironsights]

Nothing wrong with levers, but for a backup gun, there´s exactly ONE caliber:

the 9 mm.

Luger, Parabellum, 9 x 19 ...

And I DO NOT buy that the primary and backup gun should have the same caliber!!

Better you are able to use two different cartridges ....

.30 - 30 carbine and 9 mm handgun with a light, but accurate .22 - that´s it!

The cleaning supplies alone for an AR would cost and weight down you dearly!!

IMHO the Ruger Single action in .357 and 9 mm would be a mighty good gun to have!

just MO, Hermann

Ok. Obviously a strong opinion, and valid in itself, but I'm curious as to the rationale behind it.

I believe the "one caliber" concept in an easily reloadable, non-military, intermediate cartridge gun combo (like .38/.357) will be significantly easier to feed in the long run, where Military Calibers are often the first to be hoarded, disposed of &/or be generally restricted by fiat or default. By having both guns using the same feedstock, if you lose one, you aren't suddenly burdened with ammo you can't use. Likewise, the .22 is good only as long as you have ammo to feed it. True, you can store a LOT of .22, but once it's gone it's gone. So long as I recover my brass I can carry the makings for 2000rds of .357 in about the space required for 1000rds of .22 - at a fraction of the weight.

[tman]

glock 18 in 9mm with 33 rounds and selective-fire. works for me

[AJMD429]

I believe the "one caliber" concept in an easily reloadable, non-military, intermediate cartridge gun combo (like .38/.357) will be significantly easier to feed in the long run, where Military Calibers are often the first to be hoarded, disposed of &/or be generally restricted by fiat or default. By having both guns using the same feedstock, if you lose one, you aren't suddenly burdened with ammo you can't use. Likewise, the .22 is good only as long as you have ammo to feed it. True, you can store a LOT of .22, but once it's gone it's gone. So long as I recover my brass I can carry the makings for 2000rds of .357 in about the space required for 1000rds of .22 - at a fraction of the weight.

Perhaps the "ideal" gun would therefore either have a separate .22 LR barrel or .22 LR adapter you could use; then you could use the cheap quiet not-as-powerful .22 LR in your gun for rabbit stew, decoy purposes, or other strategic uses, yet have in the same firearm(s) the capability of high-power fire.

The problem of course is the caliber; compatible with a .22 Hornet, .223 Remington, etc., but not with much else of common use. You'd need a separate chamber/barrel insert which is usually only practical for a break-open, or an entirely separate barrel, which likewise is usually a Contender/Encore thing. SOME folks do feel the multi-barrel Encore with several barrels would be the bees knees for 'survival', and in some cases, it could be, as if hunting/sniping were the main use for the gun, particularly if with 'scrounged' odd ammo. Unfortunately, most realistic scenarios involve a potential for higher rates of fire on occasion, so the Encore could make a good second-gun, but not likely primary one.

A double-barrel shotgun with barrel/chamber inserts for say .22 LR, .223, .30-30, .30-06, .357 Max/Mag, .460 S&W/.454Casull/.45 Colt, & .45-70 could be a real cool item, though, especially if the designers took care to make the inserts indexable so you could sight in with precision. You could leave one side as 12 gauge and make the other any of the above calibers, or have one in .45-70 and one in .223 Rem. Again, I'd want that semiauto or high-cap levergun in ADDITION to the fancy SXS, but it sure would be a nice thing to have.

I'd just like to have a SXS like that NOW, actually...!

[Old Ironsights]

I believe the "one caliber" concept in an easily reloadable, non-military, intermediate cartridge gun combo (like .38/.357) will be significantly easier to feed in the long run, where Military Calibers are often the first to be hoarded, disposed of &/or be generally restricted by fiat or default. By having both guns using the same feedstock, if you lose one, you aren't suddenly burdened with ammo you can't use. Likewise, the .22 is good only as long as you have ammo to feed it. True, you can store a LOT of .22, but once it's gone it's gone. So long as I recover my brass I can carry the makings for 2000rds of .357 in about the space required for 1000rds of .22 - at a fraction of the weight.

Perhaps the "ideal" gun would therefore either have a separate .22 LR barrel or .22 LR adapter you could use; then you could use the cheap quiet not-as-powerful .22 LR in your gun for rabbit stew, decoy purposes, or other strategic uses, yet have in the same firearm(s) the capability of high-power fire. ...

That's what a pocket full of .38 "Catsneeze" loads are for...

But, I agree - if you have a pile of money, no better single shots than a Drilling with regulated barrel liners.

[Lastmohecken]

There's no one single choice for a bad times rifle, that will always be the best. The main thing is have a rifle that you can shoot well, and maintain easily. There is a difference between foraging, defending, and attacking or offensive action.

If I was engaged in a fire fight, with multible opponents, at resonable ranges or even close range, then I would want something like an FAL with a bunch of 20 round full jacketed .308's that had range and penetration, and a resonable rate of fire. I would want to be able to blow through a car or a cinder block wall, and keep on going.

If I was taking pop shots at invading personal, I might want to do it at long range, so that I might be able to get away if possible, so In that case, I might opt for a Remington 5R heavy barreled .308 and a good scope.

If I was going after a meal in the woods, maybe a .22 would be the best choice, espacally if I wanted to keep a low profile, and carry lots of ammo.

And the list just goes on and on.

[PaulB]

I've bought the book by ferfal:
http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

It looks well worth the price. I'm about half way through it.

Look at it this way, if you get one piece of advice that saves your tail, from his book, you've more than paid for it.

[Bill_Rights]

Oh good, Paul. Give us a little book review when you're done reading it, please.

Actually, we'll let you off the hook from giving a book review, if you tell us that one piece of information that's going to save our lives

But that reminds me of, when we were kids and were jumping on the bed, and my Mom would come in and say "Stop! before someone gets hurt!" And we would say back, "OK, but how will we know when that is?"

[David]

I always thought that a heavy barrel .22 with a silencer would be the cat's meow. That way you can get any weapon you want without them knowing that they are a target or where it came from.

Will a Remington Model 12-C work?

[Streetstar]

I don't know how far back this 9 page diatribe goes -- or if i have already responded in the past

but my current thoughts about leverguns for bad times depends entirely on what kind of bad times we are talking about
Nothing i would rather have if we are talking about filling the pot because i a) lost my job, b) the economy went totally kaput , but is on the upswing c) -- we still have enough infrastructure that nobody has gone completely bonkers yet

If "bad times" means everything has gone completely schizo and there are semi organized packs of rabble-rousers roaming around wanting to take other people's stuff, i want the increased capacity of a modern (or somewhat modern --- Garand would be off the list for me but anAR-15, M-14 type or G3 type would be ok ) semi-auto.


edit: -- went back and found my response from Feb 2010 -- my response is differently worded today, but somewhat the same i guess

I have a few black rifles myself , and more ammo to feed them than i care to comment on, --- that said, I have a couple of leverguns that i would prefer to depend on for a "bad times" rifle. My definition of bad times is not firefights, i think it may be a combination of home defense and hunting rolled into one, plus be compact enough to be easilly packable and somewhat easilly concealed if need be (easy to slide under the seat of my pickup)

IMO the .223/5.56 is not versatile enough for this role for my uses and most 308/7.62x51 chambered rifles are too big and bulky (again, for my uses and preferences )

But, my 1894 Trapper in .45 and 16" 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag hold plenty of cartridges and have plenty of knockdown power in the 100 meter range. I can carry 50 rounds of pistol ammo in roughly the same amount of space as 25 rifle rounds. A 20" barreled 30-30 has good capacity as well, with a bit more range.

My current favorite rifle (i have a new "favorite" every 3 months or so) is a Guide gun ---- but i probably not choose it as my only "bad times" rifle.

I'd rather not speculate on the prospect of barricading myself in the house and defending myself against hordes of invaders or other fantasy scenarios like that, as i think (hope) that scenario is a very low probability

[1894c]

thats a good choice. I don't own a EBR currently. I use my Rossi .357 as a go to firearm in good times or bad. I don't feel undergunned. I have down sized my collection centering on .357 as the primary survival weapons, but supplimented with other things.

+1

[Nicknack]

You Blokes in the States have the best rifle ever invented the M14 it will outlast you.When we could own them in the now socialist republic of Australia.I had a Winchester M14 the real McCoy it would out shoot many a rifle at 100 meters with open sights, i had mine for over 12 years and in all the years I used her she never ever failed to feed or extract not one malfunction.It would feed any type of projectile from Speer 110 grn soft points,30-30 projectiles and of course FMJ's.Dump the empty brass in a nice pile at about 2 oclock.Never had to replace a thing on her and she was GI issued.The last rifle made with hammer forged parts and a chrome lined bore and chamber and stocks could be had in walnut,beech or plastic which I prefered as there was no wood movement or from the trigger housing clamping onto the underside of the stock and the wood compressing to the point of being loose.And if you want you can turn off the gas port and you have a single shot.And the 7.62 aka .308 will put things down. All failing that a .357/44 magnum in a lever action.
Sorry just an Aussie waffling on and missing the things I had.

[Nath]

Riots/ social protection, shotgun. The odds of surviving a prolonged attack by hoards over powering an individual with any arsenal at his disposal is slim, if they want you or your stuff they gonna keep coming. A slung shotgun for each member and you stand a chance of leaving quick. IMO the shotgun is more adaptable and with very simple tools reloadable with all but anything. Ammo is commonplace too.

If I only had a choice of rifles only, any action, equal ammo quantity, any chambering, it would be the levergun in a pistol cal.

In a leave town and head for the woods scenario, flintlock, cap lock smooth rifle.

Again if only rifles were available and ammo, levergun 22 or good turn bolt.

Gents, it's too late if we get in a firefight. In what would be utter miserable circumstances running the risk of nursing a wound would only compound things. Lets not forget, we may have dependants relying on us!
Better to stay light and evade, keep out the way and leave it all behind, look forward not back.

God bless.

Nath.

[gamekeeper]

A "bad times" situation can come in many different ways, I think our hunting skills would be more important to survival than what firearm we carry, a well aimed and quiet.22 can drop someone with an assault rifle should you need one.
Like Nath said, I would not expect to last long fighting off hoards of well armed opponents. I'd rather take to the wilds traveling light and a my .22lr 9422 would be enough to keep me and mine in meat without letting everyone know my whereabouts. Likewise my .410 could do the job and is anti social enough to deter any unarmed yobs that I might encounter. I do have more powerful firearms but would have to weigh up the extra weight of ammo and gun against the ability of moving quickly out of harms way.
Still if a few survivors were to get together it could an advantage to have as many different types of firearms as possible.

[400short]

There is no perfect arm for all the possibilities, so fight with what you train with. And remember it's not the arrow but the archer....

[Birdman]

How can it be bad times if yur holding a leveraction?

[dbateman]

Oh wait I know this one it's the original LTR .









Winchester Trapper in 45Colt .

[2X22]

Not much has changed for me. Since I last posted in this thread I bought a Mini 30 and found out while I like shooting it, it just doesn't function correctly enough for me to even start to like it. For some reason it will fire 10 rounds without a hickup and then the next 20 have to be ran through manually. Or else all 30 rounds have to worked manually. I learned when a semi auto rifle has to be worked manually a dadburned levergun is much quicker!

Levers are just so simple and I've never ever in 40+ years had one fail to function or eject.

I'll take a rifle I know and am supremely comfortable with. A levergun.

2x22

[Old Ironsights]

...I learned when a semi auto rifle has to be worked manually a dadburned levergun is much quicker! Levers are just so simple and I've never ever in 40+ years had one fail to function or eject. I'll take a rifle I know and am supremely comfortable with. A levergun.

2x22

And that is EXACTLY why I'm working on 10+ mags for the Savage 99C... (.308/.358/.243 whatever...)

[2X22]

And that is EXACTLY why I'm working on 10+ mags for the Savage 99C... (.308/.358/.243 whatever...)

Now that would be COOL! As would a 10+ round magazine for a Browning BLR.

2x22

[93marshooter]

Yes;Leverguns for general bad times rifle, and with a 30-30 because you can load down for small game or to full power for deer and large game. Can use effectively cast or jacketed bullets. No semi-auto can have all that range of loads. I am thinking of a 30-30 as much more than just a fighting rifle. I've never been in a gun fight. . I would be going for some long gun in a fight. probably an AR 15.

[Hillbilly]

Side loaders can be topped off on the move without breaking the action open. I love the mag fed rifle... but reloading a 20 round box take awhile. Yea, I have at least 6 mags... but if your "out"- your OUT!

I don't think I'd like to get into an extended firefight with a 94 or 336...... but I bet I could hold my own for a while.

[Old Ironsights]

Yes;Leverguns for general bad times rifle, and with a 30-30 because you can load down for small game or to full power for deer and large game. Can use effectively cast or jacketed bullets. No semi-auto can have all that range of loads. I am thinking of a 30-30 as much more than just a fighting rifle. I've never been in a gun fight. . I would be going for some long gun in a fight. probably an AR 15.

Well... I DO know for a fact that the HK91/G3/CETME will function just fine with .308 Black Powder loads... unlike every other gas-op bottom feeder. But otherwise I agree.

[pricedo]

My old Rossi 92 in .357 Mag is a hard times "bouncing around in pickup box" gun & looks the part with all the dings, scrapes & gouges on it.
It shoots good but it looks so rough I could leave it leaning against the wall outside Starbucks for a week & it would still be there when I went back.

[rjohns94]

Since I first posted, I have had a change in my direction on this topic. I'm still sticking with a trapper, but now it's a takedown version of a marlin 1894 in 44 mag. Wild West Guns tricked it out in their co-pilot conversion. The take down is slick. The cartridge has more punch then 357 I was using before. Also have a scope mount to add a holographic sight to compliment the ghost ring sights. Can go anywhere taken down (truck,car,private plane, boat, back pack, horse). Having it handy and having it compliment my S&W trail boss is an added plus.

[pricedo]

Since I first posted, I have had a change in my direction on this topic. I'm still sticking with a trapper, but now it's a takedown version of a marlin 1894 in 44 mag. Wild West Guns tricked it out in their co-pilot conversion. The take down is slick. The cartridge has more punch then 357 I was using before. Also have a scope mount to add a holographic sight to compliment the ghost ring sights. Can go anywhere taken down (truck,car,private plane, boat, back pack, horse). Having it handy and having it compliment my S&W trail boss is an added plus.

Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Depends on your definition of bad times.

I can envision a Rossi Puma 92 in .357 Mag as a "fill the stew pot" gun in a dilapidated farm house owned by a family experiencing meager financial circumstances but not a "tricked out" (customized) takedown model Marlin 94.

Which of these things don't belong with the others (poor family, dilapidated farm house, cheap as dirt Rossi rifle, customized takedown rifle with holograhic sights).

If it took you longer than 2 seconds to answer then go make yourself a cup of extra-strong coffee.

[Old Ironsights]

Since I first posted, I have had a change in my direction on this topic. I'm still sticking with a trapper, but now it's a takedown version of a marlin 1894 in 44 mag. Wild West Guns tricked it out in their co-pilot conversion. The take down is slick. The cartridge has more punch then 357 I was using before. Also have a scope mount to add a holographic sight to compliment the ghost ring sights. Can go anywhere taken down (truck,car,private plane, boat, back pack, horse). Having it handy and having it compliment my S&W trail boss is an added plus.

Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Depends on your definition of bad times.

I can envision a Rossi Puma 92 in .357 Mag as a "fill the stew pot" gun in a dilapidated farm house owned by a family experiencing meager financial circumstances but not a "tricked out" (customized) takedown model Marlin 94.

That little 12-shot will also whack a bunch-o-zombies too... It's MY "go-to" zombie gun...

Which of these things don't belong with the others (poor family, dilapidated farm house, cheap as dirt Rossi rifle, customized takedown rifle with holograhic sights).

If it took you longer than 2 seconds to answer then go make yourself a cup of extra-strong coffee.

No Holosights, but everybody should have a .308 class MBR or Lever Equivalent (Savage 99 or BLR) to deal with Zombie Command...

[H_Talon]

[/quote]

And that is EXACTLY why I'm working on 10+ mags for the Savage 99C... (.308/.358/.243 whatever...)[/quote]

if they would load as smooth as a rotary mag I'd be in for a few ... Oh Hell Yea

Talon

[rjohns94]

Priced,
Your choice is perfect. And if the bad times were defined as financial bad times, like so many are suffering from, then I would sell most of the firearms I have, like I have done in the past. I meant no offense and I was not trying to be in anyone's face. About 6 months ago, we had a thread on the positive aspects of the takedown marlin and what we thought would be a great knock around rifle. I built the one I liked. Sorry if you took offense

[deafrn]

I've changed my mind on the "best" (for me, not anyone else) "bad times" firearms as my circumstances shifted around: where I live/work, # of dependents, income, physical health/abilities... even just getting older and readjusting my attitude towards the world.

Short term, I'd be okay with any number of firearms (not necessarily GOOD, but at least comfortable), but if I were stuck with one gun for, well, possibly the rest of whatever time I had left, that'd narrow things down a bit. A good sporterized 98K in .308 would probably be my most logical choice if I had to pick one firearm and stay with it 'til death do we part (based on durability, ease of maintenance, power level and ammunition availability), but I don't own one of those right now. I'd also grumble about being "stuck" with a bolt gun.

I am currently of the .357 Magnum carbine school, having arrived at this place via a long, roundabout route without anyone else really influencing me. With irons, a .357 carbine is effective out to where I can still shoot decent groups; the front sight is fuzzy enough that irons are not easy or fun to use anymore, but I can still manage it. The Marlin 1894CSS remains something of my ideal do-it-all, but my own North Haven-made example has never lived up to expectations, so I tend to fall back on a 16" Rossi in stainless (tuned per Steve Young's DVD) which is tremendously handy and has proven reliable enough for me to now trust as much as any lever, semiauto or pump.

Is this a good choice? Some people I know and love would be BADLY served by my giving them a lever-action .357 to defend/feed themselves. For me, it'll do about as well as anything that I can realistically lug around around with enough ammunition to make any sense.

[pricedo]

Priced,
Your choice is perfect. And if the bad times were defined as financial bad times, like so many are suffering from, then I would sell most of the firearms I have, like I have done in the past. I meant no offense and I was not trying to be in anyone's face. About 6 months ago, we had a thread on the co dot of the takedown marlin and what we thought would be a great knock around rifle. I built the one I liked. Sorry if you took offense

Offense? Who's taking offense ?

Is it a Xmas related phenomena that some people are all of a sudden becoming super-sensitive on this board?

I own 40+ long guns & as many handguns.............there's no recession happening at my place.

I just couldn't picture a custom built levergun in the home of someone who could be described as TFE "temporarily financially embarrassed".

I could see any variety of bargain rack guns like break-open shotgun, Mosins, Lee Enfields, Rossis in such a home but not a custom built levergun.

It's simply a matter of interpretation of "bad Times".

We're just talking here.

In discussion forums we share opinions & information but at the end of the day you do what you do & I do what I do according to our own wishes and circumstances.

[rjohns94]

Just wanted to be sure. Blessings

[gimdandy]

Rjohns94 is not super sensitive , HE'S SUPER POLITE.
He was explaining what HE has for a bad times rifle (the topic )not trying to convince anyone else what "they" should do and certainly not a TFE situation as you described.
ln rereading it appears that it might be you who is super sensitive.................just relax, take it easy, we're all just having a conversation

[pricedo]

Rjohns94 is not super sensitive , HE'S SUPER POLITE.
He was explaining what HE has for a bad times rifle (the topic )not trying to convince anyone else what "they" should do and certainly not a TFE situation as you described.
ln rereading it appears that it might be you who is super sensitive.................just relax, take it easy, we're all just having a conversation

My point exactly.

[Stonegate]

"Beware the man with only one gun; he probably knows how to use it." If you are to survive, you will adapt to whatever hardware you have. Disaster generally strikes when you least expect it... and for most when they are unprepared. Just having the "perfect" weapon has nothing to do with being prepared. Levergun, semi auto, single shot... the real question ultimately comes down to whether you're prepared to pull the trigger.

[tman]

"Beware the man with only one gun; he probably knows how to use it." If you are to survive, you will adapt to whatever hardware you have. Disaster generally strikes when you least expect it... and for most when they are unprepared. Just having the "perfect" weapon has nothing to do with being prepared. Levergun, semi auto, single shot... the real question ultimately comes down to whether you're prepared to pull the trigger.

BIG + 1