Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

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Rifleman336
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Rifleman336 »

Gary wrote: Where a 44 mag or 30-30 would be too powerful for small game & birds.
I can't speak for .44 mag, but the .30-30 can have a .30 Caliber round lead ball, over 5 Grs of Bullseye for a game getter. The 40 gr ball does 1100 FPS, like that of a .22 LR. Loading a sizeable stash of such rounds could and should be done ahead of time. For you won't have a lot of time to do anything, that requires lots of time, or find yourself short of something at the last minute and the stores are no longer open. So doing it ahead of time, is like money in the bank.


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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Malamute »

I use 3 grs Unique or Red Dot for such loads in the 30-30, or 6 1/2 grs Unique for a 115 gr cast bullet load similar to the 32-20, (or 38 spl).

The 200 gr cast rnfp @ about 1100 fps in a 44 mag rifle makes a good general purpose small to medium game load similar to the 44-40 black powder or factory level load. They don't blow up small game. Round balls with a few grains of pistol powder work alright also.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Lastmohecken »

There is no doubt that one can do a lot with just about any rifle, be it singleshot, leveraction, semi-auto, etc. And it probably wouldn't hurt to have some small game loads developed, for a .357 lever, etc. But it probably makes better sense to make sure you also have several .22 caliber rifles, pistols etc and even shotguns for small game.

Whatever kind of gun you choose, I recomend buying more then one, and maybe a few spare parts that could possibly fail, in that particular model.

A lot of people talk or write about bugging out, to go back and live off of the land etc, but for many it's just not practical, some may pull it off, until they get sick, bad hurt etc, but I guess that is part of survival also, and everyone dies sometime. However, if one should get forced out into the open with just what they can carry, I would probably want one good centerfire rifle with some range, and maybe a good accurate .22 caliber pistol, for foraging. When I was young, I did a lot of handgun hunting with a Smith and Wesson K22 revolver with 6 inch barrel, and that would probably still be my choice. And keep the rifle for defense, or maybe offense if needed.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by L_Kilkenny »

Some talk here about small game loads here the last couple pages and while I like em I'm got a question about their use in the field.......

How the heck are you gonna adjust point of aim? You've got to have a gun sighted in and a squib load ain't gonna be anywhere near. IMO, pick a load and stick with it in "bad times". How would you guys compensate for your small game loads?

LK
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by O.S.O.K. »

Rifleman336 wrote:Yeah, I love the guys that think you need an assault rifle, a grenade launcher and a M-1 Tank.

These are people that are afraid of their own shadow and once you knock their "assault rifle" they start getting bent out of shape, real quick.
I worked is some of the worst of the worst in two major Ohio cities as a Security guard for HUD housing. For the first four years I carried a .357 Magnum Revolver and I had no problems with multiple assailants (gang members) that thought because they had the numbers on their side, wanting to leave post-haste or going spread eagle, after drawing down on them. For If I was going to "go" in a gun fight I was taking someone(s) with me. In the end Gang members are chicken, if they think that their ticket is going to be punched.

A levergun will do if you will do. Yes, it's best to avoid a fight, but if it comes down to slinging lead, go for the leader or the most mouthy individual in the group first, if the rest of the mob gets the brains of one or two of their friends, on their outfits they'll run for they don't want to be next. For a gang feeds on fear, if you show it or back down, your going to get it.

As they say fight smart not hard, try to secure your place the best you can and it great to have friends and neighbors to work with, for even if a lone wolf had a m-60, he can be over come, if the mob was big enough and didn't care how many of their number dies to get what you have.

You gotta know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em and know when to run............ :lol: :lol: :lol:

A levergun will work in either .357, .44 Magnum or .30-30 Win, just get better sights than what the factory give you. A squared front post and a ladder sight from Dr. Skinner will help. Next practice, practice, practice. Or no gun will be good for you. Another couple mods as money becomes available is get a heavy duty mag tube from DRC custom guns if it's a Marlin, and get the feed port edges "melted down" so to be easier on your fingers.

Another thing that can help is Both Thunder Ranch and Suareze international have levergun fighting classes. Learn to use what you got or can afford within reason and you should be OK.



Rifleman 336
Anybody that suggests that a battle rifle is better than a levergun for social work is afraid of their own shadow?

That's about the same as somebody saying that anyone that clings to the old out of date leverguns is a hopless romantic that ignores reality.

Neither are true.

And you should be ashamed of yourself for using the term "assault rifle" - like Sara Brady. Good job there.

Given your use of the term, I suggest that you don't likely know what a true "assault rifle" is?

And I would suggest that your experience was during good times and none of your adversaries were hungry and desperate. They were simply looking for an easy mark and yes, they are cowards.

However, in truely bad times, after killing a few unprepared people and taking their food and supplies, these animals will become enboldened and won't hesitate to shoot first and often. Being able to cover a group of assailants with sustained, aimed fire will be a huge advantage.

Again, being prepared with the best tools available is not "being afraid of your own shadow". Its being intellegent and realistic.

I am not dissing those who are happy with their leverguns for the purpose - but you simply can not argue with any level of credibility that they are the best for the purpose. And attempting to insult those that state this only makes you lose credibility and respect. IMHO
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by 2X22 »

L_Kilkenny wrote:Some talk here about small game loads here the last couple pages and while I like em I'm got a question about their use in the field.......

How the heck are you gonna adjust point of aim? You've got to have a gun sighted in and a squib load ain't gonna be anywhere near. IMO, pick a load and stick with it in "bad times". How would you guys compensate for your small game loads?
Truth be known, I use 2 different rifles for this, a Marlin CB in .44 for very heavy deer/elk loads. I also use another Marlin Cowboy in .44 for the lighter loads.

Now, the rifle I use lighter loads in is pretty fun. I can shoot from 5grs Unique out of .44 Russian cases, 7 1/2grs of Unique from a 44 Special case and up to 10 grains of Unique out of a Magnum case with very little change of impact. Inside of 50 yards, no compensation is required, out toward 100 yards the difference between the Special and Magnum load is less than a couple inches and that in elevation only. All these loads are using a 250gr cast bullet.

The 44 Russian load is not quite silent, but very very quiet :D

2x22
Last edited by 2X22 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Rifleman336 »

O.S.O.K. wrote:
Rifleman336 wrote:Yeah, I love the guys that think you need an assault rifle, a grenade launcher and a M-1 Tank.

These are people that are afraid of their own shadow and once you knock their "assault rifle" they start getting bent out of shape, real quick.
I worked is some of the worst of the worst in two major Ohio cities as a Security guard for HUD housing. For the first four years I carried a .357 Magnum Revolver and I had no problems with multiple assailants (gang members) that thought because they had the numbers on their side, wanting to leave post-haste or going spread eagle, after drawing down on them. For If I was going to "go" in a gun fight I was taking someone(s) with me. In the end Gang members are chicken, if they think that their ticket is going to be punched.

A levergun will do if you will do. Yes, it's best to avoid a fight, but if it comes down to slinging lead, go for the leader or the most mouthy individual in the group first, if the rest of the mob gets the brains of one or two of their friends, on their outfits they'll run for they don't want to be next. For a gang feeds on fear, if you show it or back down, your going to get it.

As they say fight smart not hard, try to secure your place the best you can and it great to have friends and neighbors to work with, for even if a lone wolf had a m-60, he can be over come, if the mob was big enough and didn't care how many of their number dies to get what you have.

You gotta know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em and know when to run............ :lol: :lol: :lol:

A levergun will work in either .357, .44 Magnum or .30-30 Win, just get better sights than what the factory give you. A squared front post and a ladder sight from Dr. Skinner will help. Next practice, practice, practice. Or no gun will be good for you. Another couple mods as money becomes available is get a heavy duty mag tube from DRC custom guns if it's a Marlin, and get the feed port edges "melted down" so to be easier on your fingers.

Another thing that can help is Both Thunder Ranch and Suareze international have levergun fighting classes. Learn to use what you got or can afford within reason and you should be OK.



Rifleman 336
Anybody that suggests that a battle rifle is better than a levergun for social work is afraid of their own shadow?

That's about the same as somebody saying that anyone that clings to the old out of date leverguns is a hopless romantic that ignores reality.

Neither are true.

And you should be ashamed of yourself for using the term "assault rifle" - like Sara Brady. Good job there.

Given your use of the term, I suggest that you don't likely know what a true "assault rifle" is?

And I would suggest that your experience was during good times and none of your adversaries were hungry and desperate. They were simply looking for an easy mark and yes, they are cowards.

However, in truely bad times, after killing a few unprepared people and taking their food and supplies, these animals will become enboldened and won't hesitate to shoot first and often. Being able to cover a group of assailants with sustained, aimed fire will be a huge advantage.

Again, being prepared with the best tools available is not "being afraid of your own shadow". Its being intellegent and realistic.

I am not dissing those who are happy with their leverguns for the purpose - but you simply can not argue with any level of credibility that they are the best for the purpose. And attempting to insult those that state this only makes you lose credibility and respect. IMHO

Point proven!!! Right here.

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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by O.S.O.K. »

The only thing proven Rifleman is that you can't make a logical argument so you resort to insults.

Of course, apparently you don't have much real information, so I can understand that.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by 76/444 »

You are correct Rifleman,... "point made"!!

And O.S.O.K made the correct and true point/points,... not you,.... in my opinion.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Malamute »

L_Kilkenny wrote:Some talk here about small game loads here the last couple pages and while I like em I'm got a question about their use in the field.......

How the heck are you gonna adjust point of aim? You've got to have a gun sighted in and a squib load ain't gonna be anywhere near. IMO, pick a load and stick with it in "bad times". How would you guys compensate for your small game loads?

LK
I never ever adjust the sights to small game loads. I sight in for the main load I use as a full power one (generally about 3" high @ 100 yds for a 30-30), and only single load a small game load when needed, leaving the magazine ready with standard loads. I shoot the light loads enough that I know where to hold, usually they hit a little low of the full power sight setting. Some question their ability to figure out the difference when needed. Perhaps that would be a problem for them, it never has been for me. I can generally head shoot grouse, and hit bunnies quite well out to 30 yards without issue or drama, and shoot the head off a rattlesnake when needed when I'm out with my dogs. Full power loads generally shoot a touch low at very close range also, so there isnt much difference in that regard.
Last edited by Malamute on Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by JerryB »

Well said Malamute. It helps to know your load and rifle.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Rifleman336 »

O.S.O.K. wrote:The only thing proven Rifleman is that you can't make a logical argument so you resort to insults.

Of course, apparently you don't have much real information, so I can understand that.
Funny, I didn't single out any one member, nor do you see any name calling. But I violated you ego, and you couldn't help yourself, and now you and 76/444 are trying to pick a fight.

Like I said it proves my point, exactly.

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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by 76/444 »

Rifleman336 wrote:
O.S.O.K. wrote:The only thing proven Rifleman is that you can't make a logical argument so you resort to insults.

Of course, apparently you don't have much real information, so I can understand that.
Funny, I didn't single out any one member, nor do you see any name calling. But I violated you ego, and you couldn't help yourself, and now you and 76/444 are trying to pick a fight.

Like I said it proves my point, exactly.

Rifleman 336

Ease up on the paranoia, guy. No one picking any fight,... just stating opinions.

That IS what a open forum to the World Wide Web is about,... isn't it?

Or, are you operating under the delusion that everyone around the entire world will agree with your opinion?
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by AJMD429 »

L_Kilkenny wrote:How the heck are you gonna adjust point of aim? You've got to have a gun sighted in and a squib load ain't gonna be anywhere near. IMO, pick a load and stick with it in "bad times". How would you guys compensate for your small game loads?
The same way I 'compensate' for my small anything else, of course . . . a click-adjustable scope, Williams sight, or whatever. Maybe even enough practice that I can reliably 'hold over' when needed. :roll: :lol:
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by O.S.O.K. »

Rifleman336 wrote:
O.S.O.K. wrote:The only thing proven Rifleman is that you can't make a logical argument so you resort to insults.

Of course, apparently you don't have much real information, so I can understand that.
Funny, I didn't single out any one member, nor do you see any name calling. But I violated you ego, and you couldn't help yourself, and now you and 76/444 are trying to pick a fight.

Like I said it proves my point, exactly.

Rifleman 336
Not singling out a specific member - only those that take a certain view. And if any of those making the argument that you insult should respond, it proves your point? What a brilliant concept.

I am in awe of your intellectual prowess. :lol:

Apparently now, you attempt more indirect insults. But fail again miserably. :P

I guess you really can't make a logical argument without some kind of slander or slight?

Your straw man is on fire and falling to the ground, a pile of smoldering embers.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Rifleman336 »

O.S.O.K. wrote:
Rifleman336 wrote:
O.S.O.K. wrote:The only thing proven Rifleman is that you can't make a logical argument so you resort to insults.

Of course, apparently you don't have much real information, so I can understand that.
Funny, I didn't single out any one member, nor do you see any name calling. But I violated you ego, and you couldn't help yourself, and now you and 76/444 are trying to pick a fight.

Like I said it proves my point, exactly.

Rifleman 336
Not singling out a specific member - only those that take a certain view. And if any of those making the argument that you insult should respond, it proves your point? What a brilliant concept.

I am in awe of your intellectual prowess. :lol:

Apparently now, you attempt more indirect insults. But fail again miserably. :P

I guess you really can't make a logical argument without some kind of slander or slight?

Your straw man is on fire and falling to the ground, a pile of smoldering embers.


SEE!!!!! YOUR ITCHING FOR A FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now it's "indirect insults and or inferred insults". Your just trying to make something out of nothing. You ego is a as big as the Hindenburg and just as volatile, and then you, think you winning to boot????!!!! :lol: :lol:

Keep deluding yourself you winning, while you foam at the mouth more like a lunatic, and all we do is stand there and laugh at you. :lol: :lol:

Good luck, for your going to need it with a chip that big on your shoulder.

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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Bill_Rights »

Not to poke fun at a good bar-room brawl (or I'll get poked, myself), but I have forgotten what the gist of the dispute was all about, about battle rifle verses lever gun verses hopeless romantics verses shadows. Or something.

Also, about squib loads, by all means, go outdoors, set up sight-in targets and dial in your new load. Take your time. Shoot five-shot groups. The sound of gunfire in the streets will do wonders to keep the bad guys away. Really.

Back to the "bad times" themselves: A lot of us have considerable plans for defending the homestead, whether rural or in town. And a number of us plan to move out to more remote places to get away from the unprepared hordes. And quite a few Members have given very insightful comments, some evidently having read of Fernando Aguirre's (FerFAL) real-life experience of urban breakdown in Argentina (here's a whole list of FerFAL posts - I don't know which one we started with: http://www.reddit.com/domain/ferfal.blogspot.com). Some of our Members' ideas were excellent and I will try to highlight them later.

Of the Argentine experience, the most disturbing aspect was, as one of us said:
AMDJ429 said:
I think it is more likely we'll have the 'gradual' erosion of social order, as the government mismanages the economy, drives small businesses out of business with taxes and regulations...
The HELL of that in Argentina was, A) the police and courts would do nothing to protect you, the law-abiding homeowner and B) the police and courts would do nothing to apprehend or jail the criminals who attacked you or your family, BUT C) the police and courts would come after you to apprehend and jail you, the homeowner, if you did anything "wrong", apparently simply because they knew where to come and find you.

My position on a bad times/breakdown event is this:
I am not going anywhere. I am going to stay in my suburb that stretches miles in each direction. With no plan whatsoever, I have enough drygoods in the house to eat for two weeks, 2 creeks and 2 ponds within 100 yards to drink from and plenty of weapons and ammo to uhhh at least not be a push over. I am going to organize my neighbors, arm them if necessary and we together are going to guard and defend our home space.

Look, my dad didn't risk his neck in the South Pacific in WWII and all the US soldiers before and after him didn't risk/lose theirs so that I could bug out for the hills and live like a hermit while the bulk of America decended into the equivalent of a war-torn, two-bit third-world country!

We built this country and it is ours. We are going to take care of it, government or no government. In fact, most of the time I suspect that this nation plows on as well as it does in spite of government, not because of government or even with the help of government. It is just a plain fact that, day in and day out, the government does nothing to preserve order on the streets and in the neighborhoods. All it does is respond after the fact.

At the same time, there will be those elements in society who will assume that, because the government is not operational, they can run roughshod over the population and landscape. These people do not understand America and Americans. Yes, they can start running roughshod, and for a time they may do serious damage to our people and property, because we have been at peace for so long that our living arrangements are not well defended against disorderly conduct. BUT those elements will find out that they will not succeed in the neighborhoods and parts of cities inhabited by productive, land-owning, responsible citizens, except here and there, by chance or early surprise. Soon enough, the good citizens, the regular Americans will band together to defend their homes, businesses and people.

I am sure it will not be perfect. Some of my neighbors will choose not to cooperate. The remants of civil authority may object. I plan to sit the Police Chief and the Sheriff down in my living room (or, more likely there's a developer who knows them all over on the next street, in his living room) and explain to them that if they don't want to or can't defend our neighborhood, then we'll do it for ourselves. There is a theory of law that says, if the law can't be enforced by appointed authorities, then citizens have the right of self-defense of their towns and public lands, and the Constitution is still in force. Our country is us people, not the government.

For neighborhood defense, I will give you just two of many things I would implement. Physical barriers would be set up along backyards, side yards and outlying cross-streets, so that the only way people, welcome or unwelcome, can come in is through the main drags, with potentially armed houses on all sides. This creates (optional) cross-fire kill zones. Another twin point: No hostile car leaves but rather gets blocked in a shot up to the point of undrivability AND no attacker leaves on foot without a dozen armed men, armed boys and dogs giving chase, well into the next neighborhood, the next beyond that and any woods and parks as well. (In situations of chasing a fleeing attacker, I will shoot a person in the back, no problem, just as retreating armies get shot at. This is NOT about personal honor - it's about crushing the enemy and instilling absolute fear.)

I hope it never comes to that, but, if it does, the American people are not just going to lay down and "take it". We will rise up and take back our streets. At least I am sure I and my neighbors will. And we will not live for years like FerFAL did in Argentina, either. We will clean out the root of the problem, no matter where in our town/county it resides. You know, I happened to hear the Army recruit's motto again yesterday: "I pledge to defend the US Constitution and the American way of life". Can we do any less?

P.S. - I am running for the US Senate next year - I'll post my campaign web site soon ( :shock: - not really :D )
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by PaulB »

In fact, most of the time I suspect that this nation plows on as well as it does in spite of government, not because of government or even with the help of government.
Ah, a budding anarchist. :wink:

As Murray Rothbard put it, the correct way to think about government, is as if they are an armed gang of thugs. Kinda explains a lot when you look at them this way. Protection racket, turf battles, and everything else. And the fact they never solve problems (which would put them out of work), but only "manage" them.

I guess there are some upsides to a bad times scenario: the opportunity to throw off this armed gang we call government, and replace it with something better, just like the Declaration of Independence states - or with nothing at all.

Great post, by the way.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by gglass »

If I were in an urban survival mode, I don't think that my requirements would be any different than being in a backwoods survival mode. My criteria for each would be to have ammunition that matches both my rifles and handguns. With either a .44 Magnum or .357 Magnum levergun and a matching caliber handgun, I feel that I would be more efficient than if I had a .223 black rifle and a (insert caliber here) handgun.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by O.S.O.K. »

Rifleman336 wrote: SEE!!!!! YOUR ITCHING FOR A FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now it's "indirect insults and or inferred insults". Your just trying to make something out of nothing. You ego is a as big as the Hindenburg and just as volatile, and then you, think you winning to boot????!!!! :lol: :lol:

Keep deluding yourself you winning, while you foam at the mouth more like a lunatic, and all we do is stand there and laugh at you. :lol: :lol:

Good luck, for your going to need it with a chip that big on your shoulder.

Rifleman 336
Pretty funny - you talk about not being able to resist responding and then post this. Make fun of my referrence to insults and then lob a few more. What a complete show of hypocricy and self delusion.

You can have the last comment here - as I know you will only complete the canvas.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Bill_Rights »

PaulB,

Who's Murray Rothbard, as in
As Murray Rothbard put it, the correct way to think about government, is as if they are an armed gang of thugs. Kinda explains a lot when you look at them this way. Protection racket, turf battles, and everything else. And the fact they never solve problems (which would put them out of work), but only "manage" them.
and does he shoot a lever rifle? :?
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Old Ironsights »

Bill_Rights wrote:PaulB,

Who's Murray Rothbard, as in
As Murray Rothbard put it, the correct way to think about government, is as if they are an armed gang of thugs. Kinda explains a lot when you look at them this way. Protection racket, turf battles, and everything else. And the fact they never solve problems (which would put them out of work), but only "manage" them.
and does he shoot a lever rifle? :?
Murry Rothbard is the "intellectual godfather", if you will, of "Libertarianisim".

He wrote "The Ethics of Liberty" ans several other foundational Libertarian works.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Hobie »

O.S.O.K. wrote:
Rifleman336 wrote:Yeah, I love the guys that think you need an assault rifle, a grenade launcher and a M-1 Tank.

These are people that are afraid of their own shadow and once you knock their "assault rifle" they start getting bent out of shape, real quick.
I worked is some of the worst of the worst in two major Ohio cities as a Security guard for HUD housing. For the first four years I carried a .357 Magnum Revolver and I had no problems with multiple assailants (gang members) that thought because they had the numbers on their side, wanting to leave post-haste or going spread eagle, after drawing down on them. For If I was going to "go" in a gun fight I was taking someone(s) with me. In the end Gang members are chicken, if they think that their ticket is going to be punched.

A levergun will do if you will do. Yes, it's best to avoid a fight, but if it comes down to slinging lead, go for the leader or the most mouthy individual in the group first, if the rest of the mob gets the brains of one or two of their friends, on their outfits they'll run for they don't want to be next. For a gang feeds on fear, if you show it or back down, your going to get it.

As they say fight smart not hard, try to secure your place the best you can and it great to have friends and neighbors to work with, for even if a lone wolf had a m-60, he can be over come, if the mob was big enough and didn't care how many of their number dies to get what you have.

You gotta know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em and know when to run............ :lol: :lol: :lol:

A levergun will work in either .357, .44 Magnum or .30-30 Win, just get better sights than what the factory give you. A squared front post and a ladder sight from Dr. Skinner will help. Next practice, practice, practice. Or no gun will be good for you. Another couple mods as money becomes available is get a heavy duty mag tube from DRC custom guns if it's a Marlin, and get the feed port edges "melted down" so to be easier on your fingers.

Another thing that can help is Both Thunder Ranch and Suareze international have levergun fighting classes. Learn to use what you got or can afford within reason and you should be OK.



Rifleman 336
Anybody that suggests that a battle rifle is better than a levergun for social work is afraid of their own shadow?

That's about the same as somebody saying that anyone that clings to the old out of date leverguns is a hopless romantic that ignores reality.

Neither are true.

And you should be ashamed of yourself for using the term "assault rifle" - like Sara Brady. Good job there.

Given your use of the term, I suggest that you don't likely know what a true "assault rifle" is?

And I would suggest that your experience was during good times and none of your adversaries were hungry and desperate. They were simply looking for an easy mark and yes, they are cowards.

However, in truely bad times, after killing a few unprepared people and taking their food and supplies, these animals will become enboldened and won't hesitate to shoot first and often. Being able to cover a group of assailants with sustained, aimed fire will be a huge advantage.

Again, being prepared with the best tools available is not "being afraid of your own shadow". Its being intellegent and realistic.

I am not dissing those who are happy with their leverguns for the purpose - but you simply can not argue with any level of credibility that they are the best for the purpose. And attempting to insult those that state this only makes you lose credibility and respect. IMHO
I don't think you guys are at odds. One says the levergun is adequate given the proper mental state and reasoning and the other says the levergun is adequate but not the best. The problem almost never acknowledged in these discussions is that sometimes even inadequate is sufficient and sometimes the very best can't make up for bad luck. I'm a strong believer in Murphy's law and its corollaries.
Sincerely,

Hobie

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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Gary »

I'm with Hobie. Sometimes the right tool is a screwdriver and sometimes the right tool is a hammer. We seem to be split over Snap-On vs Matco.

How about this guy's choice for "urban warfare"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRYwMrsaLxs :mrgreen:
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by nemhed »

Gary wrote:I'm with Hobie. Sometimes the right tool is a screwdriver and sometimes the right tool is a hammer. We seem to be split over Snap-On vs Matco.
Sometimes you're stuck using a screwdriver as a prybar and a rock as a hammer. :wink:
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by rjohns94 »

Gary,

Winner of Bronze star and I really like his choice of weapon!
Mike Johnson,

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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by shooter »

Any tool that will work is better than having no tool, IMO. If a levergun is all you have, it's infinitely better than rocks and sticks. As with anything, though, if you have the resources you should equip yourself with the very best tool for the job. In a "bad times" situation, I would rather be overgunned than undergunned. I'd rather have a levergun than a bolt gun, and in some situations a lever would be more than sufficient. For those situations that a lever is not sufficient, I'd rather play it safe than sorry and have a modern battle rifle.
‎"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by O.S.O.K. »

Totally agree Hobie. I just made the mistake of rising to his put-down and thinking that he actually wanted to discuss the post's topic...
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Old Ironsights »

The best "bad times" rifle is the one you can & will use... to get the equipment you need to survive the worse times to come.

Badguys carry all the MBRs & ammo you will ever need - and your name won't get on a 'EBR Owner List'...
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by stretch »

General George Patton said:

"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."

I think circumstances and weapons are rarely perfect. If you can defend yourself
with the rifle of your choice, that's the right one. A lever action in 30-30 is fine.
So is a Remington 700 in 30-06, a Mosin-Nagant, and an AR-15. Having the will to use
it is the most important aspect. Hitting your target is the second-most important part.
Even with the most perfect weapon for the circumstances, one can end up on the losing
end of a scrap.

I'd MUCH rather go up against a fella with an AK-47 on full auto who didn't have a clue
what he was doing, than someone who had a will to fight, knew exactly what he was
about, and had an antique 30-30 levergun.

-Stretch
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Meeteetse »

shooter wrote:Any tool that will work is better than having no tool, IMO. If a levergun is all you have, it's infinitely better than rocks and sticks. As with anything, though, if you have the resources you should equip yourself with the very best tool for the job. In a "bad times" situation, I would rather be overgunned than undergunned. I'd rather have a levergun than a bolt gun, and in some situations a lever would be more than sufficient. For those situations that a lever is not sufficient, I'd rather play it safe than sorry and have a modern battle rifle.
I just have one question of your logic, how do you know when you are undergunned?? A bad times situation will likely be somewhat of a surprise, so you will fight with what you have at hand. If it is not a surprise and the army is coming, you will never be able to out gun them. So, why not pick the one that you shoot the best and others in your family can also handle? That's what I have done.

If a MBR works for you and yours than you have the correct weapon for you and I have mine and they probably are not the same. By the way; I have bolt guns that I will take over your MBR any day and if you are approaching my family you will never hear the bullet, nor will you see me, from a much greater distance than your MBR can reach. :D
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Gary »

Well said, Stretch.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Malamute »

Just some food for thought.

From Jeff Coopers Commentaries, Vol 5, No 5.


Remember the axiom that you are only "outgunned" if you miss. Only the old-timers among us remember the deserved adulation heaped upon Butch O'Hare, after whom the Chicago airport is now named. In his magnificent exploit he was the only Navy fighter plane available in the air when nine Japanese Betty's were observed in attack formation heading for the Lexington battle group. These Betty's were twin-engined medium bombers with rifle caliber machineguns forward and sideward, plus a 20mm automatic cannon as a tail stinger. The Nip formation was a V of V's flying very close together and protecting each other with their own guns. O'Hare was flying an F4F-3 armed with four 50-caliber Brownings and packing 200 rounds per gun. In plain sight he tore into that Jap formation and destroyed five bombers before he ran out of ammunition and the fight broke up.

Let our current handwringing journalists observe that he was not "outgunned."
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Griff »

My thought after ready 7 pages of this...

Before anyone snipes (pun intended), at someone else's choice of a "bad times rifle"... maybe they should consider how'd they like to be on the receiving end of that choice.

Assuming the user was skilled and willing to use it.

I don't care what it is... getting shot, hurts. It can, and often does, take the fight right outta a person.

Take your best shot.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by rimrock »

while considering some survival techniques awhile back, I found this article:http://www.castbullet.com/reload/tentload.htm. This got me to start thinking about having sufficient ammo for survival. There's just about no way I could carry 6-700 rounds of .444 because of the weight. But I can take the reloading essentials--as we've recently learned primers are critcal-- for my straight walled cartridges including my .45C and set up under good cover to deal with that task while the situation is relatively calm. While bullets are nice, the .444 is big enough that I could use pebbles if I had to. You can scrounge up stuff for usable blackpowder. It's not necessarily the only or the best solution--just intended to get you to think about your own situation. Best made plans are thrown aside all the time, but having no plan at all may not let you think straight when you need to.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by shooter »

Meeteetse wrote:
shooter wrote:Any tool that will work is better than having no tool, IMO. If a levergun is all you have, it's infinitely better than rocks and sticks. As with anything, though, if you have the resources you should equip yourself with the very best tool for the job. In a "bad times" situation, I would rather be overgunned than undergunned. I'd rather have a levergun than a bolt gun, and in some situations a lever would be more than sufficient. For those situations that a lever is not sufficient, I'd rather play it safe than sorry and have a modern battle rifle.
I just have one question of your logic, how do you know when you are undergunned?? A bad times situation will likely be somewhat of a surprise, so you will fight with what you have at hand. If it is not a surprise and the army is coming, you will never be able to out gun them. So, why not pick the one that you shoot the best and others in your family can also handle? That's what I have done.

If a MBR works for you and yours than you have the correct weapon for you and I have mine and they probably are not the same. By the way; I have bolt guns that I will take over your MBR any day and if you are approaching my family you will never hear the bullet, nor will you see me, from a much greater distance than your MBR can reach. :D
I agree with you. Bolt guns have their place, as does everything else. An MBR isn't worth a plug nickel if you or your family doesn't know how to use it, or aren't willing to use it. I guess I'm not good at getting my point across by typing, at least without taking up a lot of room.

Basically, I'm not arguing against your position. If a lever is what you and your family have and know how to use, then you are using as much firepower as possible. I would pick up a lever or bolt action for 99% of tasks every day, even in bad times right now. I don't know the first thing about shooting an MBR, unless you count an SKS, which certainly has its drawbacks compared to an AR, AK, or other more modern guns. I would like to learn to use one, though, because they do have their place and are more advantageous, IMO, in some situations than other types of firearms.

As Griff said, I don't want to be staring down the barrel of any gun that has someone knowledgeable and willing behind it.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Bill_Rights »

One thing important about bad times, and several people have mentioned it, is that your family members need to be able and willing to use your gun(s). You yourself are not always going to be around or just where you need to be when a gun needs to be brought to bear.

I just bought my first levergun, and one of the PRIME REASONS I bought it is because I think my family members will like it, enjoy shooting it and come to feel comfortable with it. (It is a .454 Casull that can shoot powder-puff .45LC loads, and it is the .45LC I am thinking about in this regard.) I have some pretty serious high power rifles, but the lever rifle in pistol caliber is 2-3 pounds lighter, 3-5 inches shorter, a good half-inch or more narrower and has a nice grip, heft and balance to it. It also looks kinda appealing. Some of my others are either way too expensive-looking, overly professional or just plain scary (all of which have their place) and the other householders don't really want to mess with those (those're Dad's guns). Maybe they're afraid they'll break something and I'll get mad. Whatever.

Anyway, I am always a "communitarian" versus being a loner. That's especially true when it comes to introducing other people to guns, or better training those that already kinda like them. I am trying to work out a deal where my local church youth group can rent some time at the local Isaac Walton Club range, for example. There is no better "insurance" to have when bad times hit than to have a lot of like minded people around. In the immortal words attributed, probably apochriphally, to Art Eatman, a moderator emeritus or some such over at The High Road forum (.org),
If you ever NEED more than three or four mags: You ain't short of mags, you're short of people on your side of the argument.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by AJMD429 »

rimrock wrote: While bullets are nice, the .444 is big enough that I could use pebbles if I had to. .
Think SABOTS...

Although I don't know of any .430 ones, there are LOTS of .45 and .50 ones...one good reason to own guns of those calibers. Like a .500 S&W Handi-Rifle. :mrgreen:
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by AJMD429 »

Bill_Rights wrote:There is no better "insurance" to have when bad times hit than to have a lot of like minded people around. In the immortal words attributed, probably apochriphally, to Art Eatman, a moderator emeritus or some such over at The High Road forum (.org), "If you ever NEED more than three or four mags: You ain't short of mags, you're short of people on your side of the argument."
Good points - and a .22 LR levergun is probably the BEST 'first gun' to have any kid OR adult shoot. Within an hour, they'll be confident and having enough fun to want to try a .357 levergun with .38 special loads. After that, there's no turning back... They may just go out and buy their own levergun.

That's not to demean the semiauto EBR's and such (or the pretty wooden Mini-14's :wink: ), but for introducing most newbies to the world of firearms, they're a bit more intimidating, cosmetically and acoustically.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Old Ironsights »

On 'tent rellading'...

A Lee Loader or 310 Tool & a good mould are priceless - esp in .357.

500 SMP primers will fit into a single 35mm film canister. Keep 2 handy. A lb of a low volume powder like N340 (7gr/load - IIRC/YMMV) will get you nearly 1000 reloads, even using a dipper. Add scrounged lead, a good mould (like the 358156HP) and a campfire/stove and you are in business for a good long while... all in a 'kit' weighing less than 3 lbs.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by 2X22 »

Bill_Rights wrote:...but the lever rifle in pistol caliber is 2-3 pounds lighter, 3-5 inches shorter, a good half-inch or more narrower and has a nice grip, heft and balance to it. It also looks kinda appealing.
That is why leverguns are the most used gun at my house even though there are many other types available. I'd say on average a levergun is used 99 out of 100 times here.

A levergun is the first one reached for when there are coyotes after the chickens or when we do a little target shooting. When I fire up the lead pot it is usually a levergun mould that is shucking out bullets, it seems. When I head out into the brush deer or elk hunting, its a levergun. Its only rational that a levergun would be the first one reached for as a 'bad times rifle' :)

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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by fordwannabe »

Uh I don't mean to stir things up....BUT, why do I have to choose? Am I the only guy on this forum who has bolts, semi's and levers? I don't think so! Heck I even have some frontstuffers and single shots(I know they shouldn't count). If bad times come I am going to my hunting cabin and most of the stuff I need is already there but will take most of my "stuff" with me. Don't see any reason to have a fight about it. Grab what ya got and get after what needs doin. Do the best you can with what you got handy and pray real hard it all works out. that's just me though. Tom
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by PaulB »

True. You will be handing those extra guns out to former gun haters who have had a change of heart. :lol:

One item to think about is handiness. In a defensive situation, you'd just be sitting there and it wouldn't matter how heavy the gun or ammo is, so a nice heavy .308 battle rifle is just the thing. Or even one of those Barretts. But if you are moving (assuming gasoline supplies are short), handiness becomes important. Then, maybe one of those little trapper Marlins in .32H&R would be just the thing (does anyone make a .327Mag levergun yet?). Can carry a lot of ammo like that. Keep in mind when you are moving, a gun is likely not the only thing you are carrying.

Also, in urban scenarios like ferfal talks about, if you have any rifle at all, a little .357 or .32 trapper would be a nice inconspicuous one. Could hang it from a strap under an overcoat, or something like that.
Last edited by PaulB on Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by AJMD429 »

fordwannabe wrote: Don't see any reason to have a fight about it.
We ain't fightin, dad, we'z just playin'... :wink:
fordwannabe wrote:Am I the only guy on this forum who has bolts, semi's and levers?
Well, actually the rest of us were all out on a canoe trip a few months back, and somehow a big wave came along and tipped all our canoes over. You'll never believe it, but we all had our gun collections with us, and pretty much lost them all. Real bummer, it was... :roll:
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Gary »

AJMD429 wrote:Well, actually the rest of us were all out on a canoe trip a few months back, and somehow a big wave came along and tipped all our canoes over. You'll never believe it, but we all had our gun collections with us, and pretty much lost them all. Real bummer, it was... :roll:
You too? There's been a lot of this going around.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by fordwannabe »

I stand corrected, what i meant to say was, am I the only guy who HAD semi's,bolts, levers, and front stuffers, before our canoe outing. I am having trouble with this as it is a painful period of my life and I seem to be blocking it out at times. Which I believe also qualifies me under the Americans with disabilities act, and should have some sort of program to make me "whole again" I think if the Guberment sent a large check to my LGS I might make a full recovery. Tom
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by 2X22 »

Foolish me.

I knew even Puget Sound was too much for my little canoe, but whoops, there it went! :shock:

Gone. Everything is gone.

But I still like talking guns with those who may still have 'em.... :o
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by tman »

good post! after reading thru all 8, i'll still take a selective -fire m4 :wink:
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by O.S.O.K. »

I just want to comment that all of my family members are experienced with the AR's and AK's and can hadle them just fine.

The AR's in particular are quite "soft shooting" and easy to place shots with.

So, for us at least, that is not an issue.

And I too have a variety of action types and enjoy them all.
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Re: Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

Post by Gary »

tman wrote:good post! after reading thru all 8, i'll still take a selective -fire m4 :wink:
My son and his friends have those. Here's one, shown by one of his comrades...

Image
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