Thoughts on lever as bad times rifle?????????

[kid_couteau]

Hi Folks

I hang on some forums that do the survival thing.

Most of the time the talk for a bad times rifle goes the way of the AR-15 or AK-47.

I have had both and lately I have been looking at levers for this role.

Now please understand. I have a very different view from most of what I would do in an emergency situation. I do not plan on getting in to any firefights or playing Red Dawn.

My thoughts are more of a hide and survive type of thing. Use the rifle for food and foraging first and fighting second.

I figure that a 336 in 30-30 should fill most of these needs.

Any thoughts?

Mods I am new here so if this is taboo please delete.

Take care
Kid

[rjohns94]

thats a good choice. I don't own a EBR currently. I use my Rossi .357 as a go to firearm in good times or bad. I don't feel undergunned. I have down sized my collection centering on .357 as the primary survival weapons, but supplimented with other things.

[Mich Hunter]

I have a metric ton of black rifles. Several AR's, FAL's, M1A, MI garands, carbines, AK's and so on. I would stack one of my leverguns any day of the week right next to them as a bad times weapon. But I really do love my M1A's

[nemhed]

The best bad times rifle would be the one you have the most ammo for or the one you can carry the most ammo for. In most cases I think that would be a 22lr. You could feed yourself with it almost indefinitely, defend yourself with it in a pinch, and not make much noise. Having said all that though, my Marlin 1894 .357 would make me feel a lot more warm and fuzzy, but a black rifle wouldn't make me feel any better.

[Meeteetse]

I totally agree that most who talk about crisis situations haven't really thought about it logically. 99% of us do not "need" a semi-auto rifle or handgun. What we need is common sense and a few good guns to protect our homes and possessions. I have a .357 lever, a .22 lever and a .44 lever with matching caliber revolvers and EVERYONE old enough to do so can operate and shoot one (at least) or all of them.

I have reduced the number of semi's I have replacing them with ammo and other supplies that may be tough to get in a bad situation. After 40+ years of shooting and preparing for unusual situations, I have strong opinions on what will work for me and my family and it does not include pretending to be a mall ninja who draws attention to themselves. I always figured that if I got into a firefight that required semi or full auto I was way out of my league not to mention my comfort zone. I did my stint in the Army a long time ago and I don't plan on re-upping.

[JerryB]

I feel the same way. In my safe is a .30 carbine, SKS, an M1 Garand, and a bunch of lever guns. One of my 94 30-30's or a Rossi 92 .357 or .45 Colt would be first in my hand. I think the .357 carbine is the one I would pick up because it is out and in the truck when I leave the house anytime.

[O.S.O.K.]

There can be no doubt that a semi auto chambered for 7.62x39 or 5.45x45 with high capacity mags is a better defensive weapon than a Marlin 336 chambered in anything.

You just can't argue well enough to overcome the obvious reasons why.

Not dissing the leverguns for this purpose - just saying that the AK's, AR's, etc. are purpose-built for combat using the latest practical know-how and are superior for that use.

But having said that, I will say that having a good repeating arm with plenty of ammo and the SKILL to use it will put you miles ahead of about 85% of those around you.

The reason that I have the AK's and AR's is that I figure that I may just not be able to choose weather or not I'll be placed in a situation where they would make a difference. And if that does happen, then well, of course I want every advantage that I can get.

But this last really depends on where you live and such - I live in a small town but there are people all around - I don't have a zone of fire around my house like you would living in the country for example.

[AJMD429]

I always figured that if I got into a firefight that required semi or full auto I was way out of my league not to mention my comfort zone. I did my stint in the Army a long time ago and I don't plan on re-upping.

I agree.

The main purpose of having an AR or AK in a economic/social crisis, is to trade it to someone who feels they just must have one, for something you need more.

[shooter]

In a survival situation I think it boils down to what you are most comfortable with. I would be most comfortable with one of my levers or my SKS. Both types of guns can fill the need of either a food gatherer or defender. I shoot my levers better probably. In a firefight there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Levers are more likely to not make you want to "spray and pray", and make you place your shots more carefully. OTOH, if you need suppressive fire, that's not as easy to do with a lever. If you have a cartridge belt, you can shoot and reload as you go every time there is a chance and not waste any ammo. If you reload often with an auto, you will be dumping unspent rounds along with your magazine. Of course, you could always go back and gather it back up after things settle down.

I think either would be a great choice. A lever in a handgun caliber with a matching sidearm to go with it would go a long way, IMO. In a pure survival situation where not much defending or gunfighting will be going on, I think a .22 is a proper choice. You can carry boatloads of ammo with very little effort, and there aren't very many animals, if any in North America that a .22 hasn't harvested.

[Malamute]

I guess it matters some as to what you percieve as "bad times" or how ever you want to say it. My ideas have changed somewhat over time. I see bad times as realistically being more likely a long deep economic issue, and less a fight with zombies/invading Canadians/Chinese/looting hoards/psycho biker ninjas/evil .g men. In any economic problem, even good times, there may be a need to protect you and yours, however, most such situations that I'm aware of, having a gun, any gun, and the willingness to stand up and use it, have made the difference. I'm refering to the LA riots, and Katrina aftermath, as the sort of problems that seemed to be dealt with quite well with firearms, and not neccesarily military type self loaders. I say a lever is as good as, perhaps better than, many others for a general purpose gun. If a gun is to be useful it needs to be at hand when needed. Levers are handier to carry and have at hand on a regular basis than bulky self loaders. If a guy likes self loaders, I have no problem with that, I just don't see them as the only, or even the best answer to defense and a general purpose gun. I also see the need for a gun more as making meat than protection, tho any gun can be so used. Perhaps my extremely rural location has some bearing on my perception of the question. Levers and scoped bolt guns fill my needs, real, and imagined.

What you are good with, and can keep ammo loaded for, and does whatever needs doing in your neighborhood, will be fine.

Talk about "survival" and "bad times" rarely seem to discuss surviving debt, job loss, a serious medical situation that will require the rest of your life to pay off, or losing your house. I think those are much more realistic topics of discussion in the context of survival or bad times. the S just HTF when you lose your job, or your wife is diagnosed with cancer. I see most of the other popular variations of the topic as wildly remote in the extreme, tho they seem to get the most discussion time.

Just my 2c.

[Bigahh]

I had to think about this one, and the #1 issue for me is being able to carry a bunch of ammo. A rim fire is out if I had to defend myself. It would work, but I just want a bit more power. I think a pistol caliber like the .357 would be about perfect. I do not own one, but have thought long and hard many times after reading about fellow Levergun members rifles. Everyone seems to just love theirs. I may have to get one if for no other reason.

[Hobie]

There will be a lot of the .30-30s used in just such a way. Heck, they have been since the cartridge was invented.

[pokey]

don't own any semis anymore, guess i'll just curl up and roll over.

use whatever you have, even if it gets down to sharp sticks.

levers work just great, but call for different tactics.

[Streetstar]

I have a few black rifles myself , and more ammo to feed them than i care to comment on, --- that said, I have a couple of leverguns that i would prefer to depend on for a "bad times" rifle. My definition of bad times is not firefights, i think it may be a combination of home defense and hunting rolled into one, plus be compact enough to be easilly packable and somewhat easilly concealed if need be (easy to slide under the seat of my pickup)

IMO the .223/5.56 is not versatile enough for this role for my uses and most 308/7.62x51 chambered rifles are too big and bulky (again, for my uses and preferences )

But, my 1894 Trapper in .45 and 16" 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag hold plenty of cartridges and have plenty of knockdown power in the 100 meter range. I can carry 50 rounds of pistol ammo in roughly the same amount of space as 25 rifle rounds. A 20" barreled 30-30 has good capacity as well, with a bit more range.

My current favorite rifle (i have a new "favorite" every 3 months or so) is a Guide gun ---- but i probably not choose it as my only "bad times" rifle.

I'd rather not speculate on the prospect of barricading myself in the house and defending myself against hordes of invaders or other fantasy scenarios like that, as i think (hope) that scenario is a very low probability

[Jason_W]

In extended bad times, a lever chambered in something like the 30-30 might be superior to an AR.

1. I'm pretty sure it would be easier to forge parts for an 1894 or 336. These things were manufactured using 19th century tech, so if we reverted to that level again, a levergun would be a plus.

2. in a pinch, a 30-30 and most pistol cals can be loaded with home cast bullets, home made black powder, and makeshift primers. I'm not sure how well the .223 or 7.62 would work with primitive components.

[shooter]

One advantage of the .223 or 7.62x39 that I forgot to mention earlier, and why I plan on eventually owning 1 rifle for each caliber, is the availability of ammo. If we do have to fight off invading soldiers, one of these calibers is what will most likely be laying all over the place because that's what the bad guys will most likely be using.

That being said, do I really think it's going to come down to that? Not really, but you never know, and it's never bad to be prepared for that scenario. For gathering food with minimal defense, my money would be on a .357, .44 mag, or .45 Colt lever with a revolver in the matching caliber. Any of those could take care of the food needs, and do a pretty good job of defending your position against a small group of people that may want your food. If things really get down and dirty, I'd grab an AR or AK/SKS.

[Malamute]

..... IMO the .223/5.56 is not versatile enough for this role for my uses and most 308/7.62x51 chambered rifles are too big and bulky (again, for my uses and preferences )
......

This is one of my points. I've carried a variety of rifles, and the military type self loaders are bulky, and not at all handy to carry compared to decent sporters, in lever or bolt type. If you don't have it in hand when you need it, it ain't worth a hill of beans, no matter how many rounds it holds, or how fast it squirts bullets out. Besides, only hits count. Making a hit quickly, no matter what your target, is what matters, and magazine capacity doesnt buy you that.

Nobody gets a letter saying "On X date, you will be engaged in a shootout with a large gang of drug addict zombies, so be sure you take your 'combat' gun". Day in, day out monotony is the general way things go, and when you least expect something to happen,.....

[KSRtrd]

Well things might get dicey, I think I would pick up a good shotgun. A rifle be good for hunting up some food for sure and a urban assualt rifle isn't my first choice, a 22 rifle and or 30/30 will fit that bill. Thinking that in the case of a major diaster on must do one thing get out of the area in has rapid manner as possible. The loss of water, food, and utilities will show that mans civilized ways will end pretty dang quick.

[anachronism]

I believe in planning for the worst, and hoping for the best. While the lever action is a fine hunting & sporting arm, I wouldn't depend on one for serious defensive use unless it was my only option. Remember, the U.S. military has never officially adopted a lever action as a battle rifle, for various reasons, including politics. I seem to remember this drove Oliver Winchester nuts at times. If thing really get that bad, my pick is an AR15. If I needed a foraging and subsistence rifle, I'd be more than happy with a 22LR lever action.

[Lastmohecken]

I think the levers would be handy, but I would prefer to have all of the bases covered. The possibilities are endless. A hunting rifle can do a lot, but just the same, I don't think I will be giving up my FAL or my AR's anytime soon. Although I don't place that much value on an AR-15, or AK47 as that will very likely be the weapon my enemy would likely have. So, I would prefer somthing that can out range, and out penetrate those weapons of the masses, just in case.

But for just a survival rifle, to forage, etc, than a good .22, might do, and I would certainally want one available, as well as my Browning BLR in .308 win. But I wouldn't snear at a good 30/30 either, and handloaded pistol caliber levers, could fill an important nitch.

Of course, the argument can be made that a good .22, because you could carry so much ammo has merit, right up until the time you need a highpowered rifle, to bail your butt out of a tight spot.

[oic0]

Semi auto and multiple shots DOES help a lot in a combat situation. As does massive clips. Even in a bad times scenario though I don't foresee many firefights taking place.

Try to think of situations where a real firefight would take place, real situations. Even criminals follow the path of least resistance and they don't want to die in a fire fight either. Never hurts to be prepared, especially when you are preparing for the unknown. I do like the idea about a .22. World goes to stuff, the luxury of caliber "ethics" goes out the window. I'll kill bambi with a plastic spoon if my family is hungry.

[Bill_Rights]

+1 for lever rifle as bad times rifle, for all the reasons mentioned. On the technical front I would add emphasis to the fact that a short-action lever rifle with large magazine capacity can be fired almost as rapidly as a semi-auto, if you train that way.

On the non-technical front, a lever rifle is not as "provocative" as an "evil black rifle" (EBR) and therefore more suitable for patrolling your property, neighborhood or town. I agree with the idea that most bad times are not going to be all-out assaults and the repelling of them. Mostly it'll be "social work". The presence of calm, law-abiding AND armed citizens will most of the time keep the peace without shots being fired. There will be some talk involved. Human needs have to be met, to avoid the unprepared becoming "desperados", willing to risk anything to survive or for their families. Medical care, food, etc. has to be provided. Babies have to be delivered. It is the job of the armed citizen to keep the peace while those things get sorted out. And I don't see this peace-keeping as a "lone ranger" kind of thing. I expect to spend time renewing acquintances with those living nearby, discussing plans and scouting/intelligence reports, plus building trust and coordinating teamwork. As a practical matter, I keep enough guns around that I can give them to my neighbors or family members (if they're stupid enough not to have their own) who are of a certain temperment so as to be reliable when the chips are down.

[madman4570]

ya, a lever 30-30 would sufice but a bad times rifle ???------------

1 or 2 SKS rifles, and about 4 tins (2000rds) of 7.62 x 39 will be the ticket.
Guns and ammo can still be found fairly cheap if you really look around some,and those gun's though
not as accurate as the AR's are in my book tough as nails under the worst conditions.

Example of one that can be had: SKS 95% condition/with laser and bipod-------$275

[Old Time Hunter]

I always thought that a heavy barrel .22 with a silencer would be the cat's meow. That way you can get any weapon you want without them knowing that they are a target or where it came from.

[Modoc ED]

I always figured that if I got into a firefight that required semi or full auto I was way out of my league not to mention my comfort zone. I did my stint in the Army a long time ago and I don't plan on re-upping.

I agree.

The main purpose of having an AR or AK in a economic/social crisis, is to trade it to someone who feels they just must have one, for something you need more.

That's just fine as long as you don't trade them ammo for it so that they can load it and take everything else you have.

[ndcowboy]

One of the reasons I've heard for the military never accepting a lever action design is that a lever gun is not easy to lever while lying in a prone position. Sure, it can be done, but the rifle needs to be tipped sideways with the sights coming off of the target. Now before anybody jumps on me and says "I do it all the time!", I'm not saying you can't do it, or that it isn't possible. It is just easier with an autoloader or a bolt rifle.
Just something to think about for a bad times rifle.

[Old Skirmisher]

Hey kid - I think the 336 in 30/30 would do ya fine. It works OK in a defensive situation too. As a small-town LEO I bought a used one and had my 'smith shorten the barrel to 16" for a patrol rifle. Qaulifying with it next to the younger guys with thier AR's was a blast; it kept up with them pretty darn well.

[t.r.]

Marlins need a good bore cleaning after 10 shots or so because its micro-groove riffling is quite shallow. In contrast, Winchester 94, Henry, and Mossberg feature standard rifling and are less prone to requiring careful cleaning to produce top accurasy. My friend Bill has never cleaned his 1950-ish Winchester in 32 Special yet it still shoots straight! Winchester 94's have been much abused by some hunters yet they perform well even in Arctic conditions.

30-30 is a very good hunting cartridge that is under-rated by many hunters who have no grey hair. In other words, the older guys grew up with 30-30 carbines and know what it will do. I see the younger guys with plastic stocked magnums and wonder where this trend will lead. These are very general statements based upon observations. I have no intent to step on anyone's toes. Please do not be offended. Thank you.

TR

[Rexster]

Autoloaders that shoot anything bigger than .223/5.56 are heavy, and I am frail in one knee, and in my support arm/shoulder. If I grab one rifle in a bad time, that requires me to be on the move, it will be a BLR chambered in .308 Winchester. I have several of them.
I could even carry one, and stash a second one, a Takedown BLR, in a backpack.

If I feel the need to tote an autoloading rifle or pump shotgun, I will bring a Mini-14 or 870P, and stash my Takedown BLR in a backpack.

My idea of domestic bad times is not warfare. Warfare is indeed a good time to have an autoloader.

[MrMurphy]

Would I use a levergun for defense? Yes. They were designed for it.

Would it be my first pick? Never. I've got years of training on the AR platform. I've cleared several thousand rooms and buildings with one "for real" not just in training and they're second nature to me. They're my first pick for most things because of the skill set.

But a basic levergun with a dozen boxes of ammo will still get the job done. Like any tube fed firearm (as the armies of the world discovered around 1890) the major problem is when the bangs stop and you get a CLICK.

There is no speed reloading of a tube fed firearm that will ever compare to a stripper clip or detachable magazine. A large magazine isn't always the key, it's the continuity of fire (less time between bangs)...so being able to reload quickly helps. A large mag helps that but it's not always the biggest thing.

A levergun will handle the general survival type duty, especially in the wilder areas, but if you get to where all your bullets went somewhere and you need to reload....you either better be running or have a pistol because hunkering down behind cover reloading a whole tube in a hurry just means whoever you shot at is now maneuvering against you.

[jlchucker]

I totally agree that most who talk about crisis situations haven't really thought about it logically. 99% of us do not "need" a semi-auto rifle or handgun. What we need is common sense and a few good guns to protect our homes and possessions. I have a .357 lever, a .22 lever and a .44 lever with matching caliber revolvers and EVERYONE old enough to do so can operate and shoot one (at least) or all of them.

I have reduced the number of semi's I have replacing them with ammo and other supplies that may be tough to get in a bad situation. After 40+ years of shooting and preparing for unusual situations, I have strong opinions on what will work for me and my family and it does not include pretending to be a mall ninja who draws attention to themselves. I always figured that if I got into a firefight that required semi or full auto I was way out of my league not to mention my comfort zone. I did my stint in the Army a long time ago and I don't plan on re-upping.

Your comment is one of the most reflective ones I've encountered regarding this subject, particularly the last sentence. As a fellow Army vet, you are obviously aware that getting into a firefight with any sort of organized military group, such as a rifle squad, for example, amounts to suicide for any "mall ninja". Home defense is one thing, but somewhere back in the days of my own infantry training, I learned early on that soldiers armed with small arms are never very far away from the availability of firepower that hugely larger arms (artillery, air cover, etc) can bring to bear. The mall ninja becomes a blot on the landscape very quickly when/if that happens. Even at my advanced age, if the US were facing such an internal national threat, I'd probably try and re-up, but more realistically, I'd not try to draw attention to myself, and would rely on what I had in the house-primarily leverguns.

[76/444]

I think a lever gun is a good middle of the road bad times piece. I have sold off all my per se battle pieces,.... except for one in a popular battle caliber. Just because!

I think for a survival situation a couple of things become important to me.

One,... a fairly descent size caliber for normal killing power, plus good barrier penetration.

Two,... a weapon of descent magazine size, of at least a half dozen or more. In a package that is relatively quick on repeating shots.

Three,... a weapon of relatively simple design , with the least amount of moving parts, and with as few parts exposed to the elements as possible.

Four,... I want a weapon that can be reloaded as I shoot, without a whole bunch of extra tack,... like foot long mags, etc..

I have reduced my long arm numbers over the years to just one bolt long distance piece, one extremely light semi-auto, and a couple of levers. I don't feel under gunned and feel very confident in meeting any circumstance that I could possibly imagine.

[Blaine]

I don't plan on any firefights, so my 1911 on my hip should cover me, and a .22 of some sort, perhaps the 9422Mag, would supply deer. (I live across the road from the forested, mostly un-used part of Joint Base Lewis-McChord and could sneak across at night and jack deer at a pre-arranged salt block at a spring I know of Mind, now, I don't currently do that, but it is a plan B for food.

[Pathfinder09]

I'll take my Marlin 336 .30-30 the Ole Appalachian assault rifle. It can serve as a darn good defense rifle, along with my Ruger security Six in .357 mag or my 629 .44 mag. I'll be well armed. I don't plan on having to lay down any suppression fire or get into any long gun battles. A 12 gauge pump would do nicely too. Just my .02

[Carbine Kelly]

Good day,

I have a good friend you keeps a 336 in 30-30 with him in vehicle at all times for this purpose in fact he has one in each both with Williams fool proof sights. He has a cartridge adapter for .32 ACP which is very quite and good on squirrels and rabbits. These adapters used to be hard to find but they are now in Sportsman Guide in 30-30, 30-06 or .308 and I think they have added 7.62x54. His thought is to hunt with this in the chamber and if you need to fight or shoot deer the magazine is full of 30-30. He standard is to carry a .32 Tomcat in his front pocket daily around the city and every where. He also keeps one of the folding air force survival combo guns in the car .22/410, don't remember the name but it folds. He also has an AR-7 that is in the other car. He typically keeps these in a day back with other essentials.

Personally I would go to a Savage 99 in .308 if possible, a very popular cartridge with better ballistics and you can use the same type adapter.

[Hobie]

I always thought that a heavy barrel .22 with a silencer would be the cat's meow. That way you can get any weapon you want without them knowing that they are a target or where it came from.

Old Time Hunter,

You certainly got some attention with that comment. Like CSM Plumley you feel there will be plenty on the ground to use if it comes to that. In fact the resistance fighters in Warsaw didn't have such luxuries and simply passed on pistols which each fighter used to get a rifle or submachinegun. I know this because the father of a fellow I served with was one of those Polish fighters, at age 12...

You guys are really re-writing Mel Tappan's "Survival Guns".

[Old Time Hunter]

I always thought that a heavy barrel .22 with a silencer would be the cat's meow. That way you can get any weapon you want without them knowing that they are a target or where it came from.

Old Time Hunter,

You certainly got some attention with that comment. Like CSM Plumley you feel there will be plenty on the ground to use if it comes to that. In fact the resistance fighters in Warsaw didn't have such luxuries and simply passed on pistols which each fighter used to get a rifle or submachinegun. I know this because the father of a fellow I served with was one of those Polish fighters, at age 12...

You guys are really re-writing Mel Tappan's "Survival Guns".

Kind of took the original OP out of context and I apologize for that, no criminal intent implied.

[AJMD429]

There is no speed reloading of a tube fed firearm that will ever compare to a stripper clip or detachable magazine. A large magazine isn't always the key, it's the continuity of fire (less time between bangs)...so being able to reload quickly helps. A large mag helps that but it's not always the biggest thing.

THAT'S just one more reason to have a Ruger 96/44 with its detachable box magazine. We just need to get someone to manufacture (should be easy) a higher-capacity one.

[MrMurphy]

I would take a real rifle caliber over a .44 Mag any time. It'll get the job done, but a .30-30, 5.56mm or others will still do better all-around at anti-personnel work. That said, a detachable magazine (or stripper clip fed) levergun would do well.

[Blaine]

I would take a real rifle caliber over a .44 Mag any time.

I don't know where to start, this is so wrong. You should shoot some .44 Mag and see if you might be willing to change your mind. 5.56 is at best a groundhog gun. I put the 30WCF and .44Mag in the same ballpark. For anti-personal use, I can't imagine a 180 JHP .44 doing anything less than putting a hole in a chest you could put your fist through.

[Otto]

You know, the AR-15... um... nevermind...

[L_Kilkenny]

I'll go against the grain here and say a lever gun would be one of my last choices. It's not that I feel it couldn't get the job done but I think I'd do better with other platforms. Shotgun is better close. I can carry mucho ammo for my 10/22. A centerfire bolt carbine would have more range, better accuracy and I'm almost as fast with a bolt gun. At home I'd rather have the shotgun and away I'd rather have the bolt gun carbine with a 2-7x.

With all that said, my idea of a "bad times" gun is more centered around food procurement with defense coming in a distant 2nd. I'm rural BTW so that makes a difference. If I was in a city prone to natural disaster/rioting and where defense might be more of a concern, a lever gun would be higher on the list. But at that point a good semi takes over.

LK

[otteray]

[quote="t.r."]Marlins need a good bore cleaning after 10 shots or so because its micro-groove riffling is quite shallow. In contrast, Winchester 94, Henry, and Mossberg feature standard rifling and are less prone to requiring careful cleaning to produce top accurasy. My friend Bill has never cleaned his 1950-ish Winchester in 32 Special yet it still shoots straight! Winchester 94's have been much abused by some hunters yet they perform well even in Arctic conditions.


TR
Hmmm, let's keep this a secret and not let my micro- grooved Marlins know about it, since they are not afflicted with this ailment when shooting hardened or gas-checked lead bullets, as well as copper clad.
1894s .41 mag and a Model 62 .30 Carbine do well with just an occasional Bore- Snake after a session of shooting.
The latter is a short stroke lever as well; pretty easy to lever while prone, just by moving the fingers.
Too bad they only make 4 round mags for the sweet little rifle. That eliminates it from the current discussion.

[tman]

as much as i love my 94's, in bad times, m4, thompson m1a1, 18" 870 12 gauge with full magazine and folding stock. most usefull would be a glock 18 with several 33 round magazines.

[Lastmohecken]

The rifle, whatever you choose is a (JAR) which means (just another rifle). The rifle is only a tool, it's the man behind it that is the weapon. A real rifleman can be a force to recond with, with just about any rifle, from an old Mosin Nagant to an M14 if he is good.

[Grizz]

I'd rather not speculate on the prospect of barricading myself in the house and defending myself against hordes of invaders or other fantasy scenarios like that, as i think (hope) that scenario is a very low probability

I think the scenario of hordes of killers has a very high probability in certain situations.

Fact: during the uprising in which the Tutus slaughtered a million plus Hutus, or vice versa, I forget which, the agressors were marching around at night with spears and machetes in units of a HUNDRED or more killers.

So, you're sitting at home with the mattresses plugging the windows and one of these killer squads starts toward your house. Whatcha going to do about it? Remember, they're at least as well armed as you are. What are you going to do?

It doesn't have to be probable to happen, it just needs to degenerate to that level, as it has thousands of times in past human history.

In that case, while the 30-30 would be effective, it might not outlast m-13's resources.

I understand that none of us wants to contemplate this or to think something like this could happen here, but the fact is that the veneer of civilization is thin and can be easily shredded. At that point whoever has the resources is gonna take what they want.

Me? I plan to set sail to some far off frozen hide where the bulk of the killers won't want to play. Probably with my 30-30, 22, and the EBPs.

BTW, a shotgun is good when your home is breached until you're overcome, but it doesn't do a stinking bit of good when the horde is a block away.

I saw an article showing IDF forces using Ruger 10-22s as sniper rifles to bust knee caps/legs of leaders in palestine riots. They found it works better than rubber bullets. I can see the benefit of knee capping the front runners.

Grizz

[tman]

in bad times the hordes from the citywill kill off the game in a month, poison the water, burn the plants and vegatation. you got a strong hold with supplies, you'd get burned out. shot out. don't care if your rambo/ sgt. york combined. i want a glock 33 cause i got to move from food source to food source. it ain't gonna be a romantized grizzly addams setting. i want portability, firepower above everything else. forget about humane one stop shots, your guns too small, the bear will eat you nonsense. but, then again, i'm a nutjob

[tman]

i ment a glock 18 with alot of 33 round magazines.

[rimrock]

I actually considered this topic as part of my analysis in choosing the rifle I wanted to focus on--the .444. I cannot argue that ammo for .223,.308, 30-06, 45ACP are much more widely available around the country. But, when (not if in my mind) this country goes to a bad situation, the distribution channels (trucks, planes, trains) will cease to exist fairly quickly so ammo will not be too easily obtained for any gun. Perhaps you can trade something you have for the ammo types mentioned above, perhaps not. I currently believe guns in these calibers will likely be more interesting to the human trash that will start blowing around. With an unusual caliber, hopefully my gun won't be as much of a target for theft when I'm not looking in most situations. And, if my gun(s) happen to be taken, then there are still plenty of defensive tools available--the successful application of such tools to BG just might be more brutal. For example, two logs hanging on chains which are set perpendicular to the available place of travel just might crush his skull. Or, he might just step in a hole full of poison pointed sticks.

I don't plan on firefights, just good, logical defense as long as possible if someone finds me in my hideaway. But, my zone of defense includes many acres with small to medium trees which can be penetrated by the .444 which removes some protective cover from my attackers. And, that zone includes marked distances like the Indians did so I don't have to range my shots. I have enough reloading supplies, and 22lr too get me through a rough spot for 2-3 yrs if I'm frugal with my ammo. I think common sense and having a well trained gun eye will get you further down the road. Pick a gun, and Practice, Practice, Practice, and know its functionality blindfolded. Maybe even read some of the survival material which is published by the U.S. military to help you go over in your mind what you think you might do. Plans do get thrown aside, but lack of planning has much more grave consequences.

And I do consider such conversations vitally important to upholding the Bill of Rights as long as emotion does not drive that conversation.

[Bogie35]

I always thought that a heavy barrel .22 with a silencer would be the cat's meow. That way you can get any weapon you want without them knowing that they are a target or where it came from.

+1

bogie