"Obsolete Calibers"

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"Obsolete Calibers"

Post by 86er »

Our recent leverguns hunt featured some older calibers considered obsolete. In particular was 2ndovc's 35 Winchester. This got me thinking about why these are obsolete, what purposes they served in their heyday and if they could be useful today. So, instead of going on and on about calibers and could-be's I am posing 2 simple questions: Do you hunt or shoot with a caliber that is "obsolete", no longer commercially loaded or considered "dying" by the gun media?

I'll answer my own post first with a YES. I have used a 450-400 3" in two different firearms over the last 10 years. Only in the last 3 or 4 years has this caliber become commercially available again. I also started shooting the 450 N. E. a few years ago before new commercially loaded ammo was available. I've shot and even carried a .455 Webley revolver on many occasions, making brass out of 45 Auto Rim when necessary. Now, the 300 Savage has been neglected for the past several years but is making a slight comeback with renewed interest in Sav 99's and Savage's introduction of the new Model 14 bolt action in 300 Sav.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by shooter »

I don't have any obsolete caliber guns. Heck, I can hardly afford to shoot all the common calibers I have. It's nice to see others keeping some of the older ones alive though. I'd like to own a .35 Win, or maybe 38-55, but not yet. Maybe someday.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by 71fan »

[quote="86er"]Do you hunt or shoot with a caliber that is "obsolete", no longer commercially loaded or considered "dying" by the gun media?[quote]
I like the 30-06 and 45-70 very much and shoot a lot of both, but as with most gun cranks, I am also attracted to adn intrigued by the lesser cartridges, as is natural when collecting 19th cetury arms.

For the truly obselete, my 1886s and Marlin 1881 are certainly fit the bill. I suppose the 40-60 Marlin is the most obsolete (especially in a too-tight-necked, oversize-bore rifle), followed by a couple of 33s. I am having a 50 Ex /40-70 / 33 wcf switch barrel built that will certainly fall into that category when finished. There aren't too many 40-70s around.

Now, the "considered 'dying' by the media" category:
My primary bolt hunting rifle is a 264 Win Mag, which the media has declared dead too many times to remember over the past 20 years. The 358 Win in my Savage 99 is in a very similar situation. Both are great hunting rounds that just never really caught on and the rags trash them more than not.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Modoc ED »

I used to have a rifle in .40-65 but got rid of it in a trade for a Model of 1917 Enfield.

As to your second criteria for obsolete -- "considered "dying" by the gun media?", the gun media's perception of firearms and the firearms industry has not been reliable for quite some time. About the only rags that are printed with relative honesty are "Rifle Magazine" and "Handloader".

Just one last thought. Some ammo that is thought not to be reloaded by a commercial ammo loaders is in fact loaded by some commercial ammo loaders just not the biggies like Federal, Winchester, Remington, etc..

Interesting thread though.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Streetstar »

I have a real hankering for a .307 winchester for some reason (is this considered to be in the "modern obsolete" category?)


These are a pain to track down -- all the gunbroker sellers want big dollars, but every time i hear about one locally, the merchant usually says something like "You shoulda been here last week, i just sold one for 300 bucks !" or something like that :lol:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by TedH »

My most used calibers may not be considered obsolete, yet. The 356 Win, 375 Win, 218 Bee are what I've been playing with the most lately. Some others are enjoying a renewed interest in the market as well. I would really like to have an old rifle in an obsolete caliber, trouble is they are usually priced out of my reach.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by 2LT Van Cott »

How might one define obsolete? Many cartridges have been resurrected and firearms for them have recently been produced.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by fordwannabe »

I shoot a 1886 in 33 wcf and make the brass from 45-70 cases. My other gun related obsession is damascus barreled side by sides so I load bp cartridges for these, even though I have found them commercially available now but not when I started. Tom
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by adirondakjack »

.50-70 1872 rolling block and a .32 S&W (short) DA circa 1882 are obsolete in terms of no loaded ammo available, but they still go bang very nicely.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Nath »

Our dear red government decides what is an obsolete cal ! I have often wondered about getting a .450 Martini in good shape,,, for hanging on the wall of course :roll:

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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by 2571 »

Streetstar wrote:I have a real hankering for a .307 winchester for some reason (is this considered to be in the "modern obsolete" category?)


These are a pain to track down -- all the gunbroker sellers want big dollars, but every time i hear about one locally, the merchant usually says something like "You shoulda been here last week, i just sold one for 300 bucks !" or something like that :lol:
I couldn't find ammo for mine. Sold it to a guy on Saturday for 5K LR primers. Been trying to get rid of it for ages. :>)
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by crs »

1886 in .45-90 and 1895 in .405 WCF; Both dated, but potent.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by SFRanger7GP »

.25 Remington in a Model 8 and a Model 14; .218 Bee in Model 65; .38-55 in 1894; 9.3x57 in a Husqvarna Bolt gun.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Machado »

11x50R M-73 Comblain lever rifle.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Streetstar »

2571 wrote:
Streetstar wrote:I have a real hankering for a .307 winchester for some reason (is this considered to be in the "modern obsolete" category?)


These are a pain to track down -- all the gunbroker sellers want big dollars, but every time i hear about one locally, the merchant usually says something like "You shoulda been here last week, i just sold one for 300 bucks !" or something like that :lol:
I couldn't find ammo for mine. Sold it to a guy on Saturday for 5K LR primers. Been trying to get rid of it for ages. :>)

Oh snap ! -------------- see what i mean? :lol:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by iceman »

I guess I use some of the new obsolete. 356 win, 300 savage and 22Hornet. I like them all and have a good supply of brass.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Tumbleweeds II »

I hunt with a .300 Savage and with a .32-20. I'm not sure either is truly "obsolete" because neither has gone out of production since inception. On the other hand, neither is to be found on the shelf at Bubba's Bait N' Beer. I used to hunt with a couple of 16 guage shotguns, that's an obsolete cartridge in some parts of the country!

You can buy almost any ammo from a custom shop, but I consider a cartridge "obsolete" if it's not readily available in local markets. John Barsness wrote an article in Handloader several years ago about "semi-wildcats", cartridges that aren't wildcats but you'll probably end up loading your own anyway because ammo is so expensive, hard to get, or whatever. I think he considered the .300 Savage, the .356 Winchester, the .348 Winchester, and similar rounds in that category.

One example (that I don't have - yet) is the 9.3x72R found in a lot of old drillings. It is roughly equivalent to a .38-55, and you can buy imported ammo, for about $4/shot!!! The 7x57R, that I do hunt with, is less expensive but still a chore to find.

I guess I could just go back to a .308, but I'm having too much fun with these oddities.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by geobru »

I shoot 45-90 and 40-82 in my 86's. Both are good rounds and are fun to shoot.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Chas. »

I shoot one that, like Larry King and Senator Robert Byrd, is old enough that it ought to be dead - 45-70. May it live forever!!
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by BenT »

25 remington in a model 14, is definitly obsolete. I just purchased this rifle and chasing down components and info has been difficult. Thanks to Charles for having a box of ammo sitting around for 40 years that he was willing to part with. Now at least I know the gun goes bang .

These might just be odd calibers I reload for not sure if they are obsolete.
307 Win
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by tman »

348WCF. 356WCF. :cry:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by perry owens »

40-65 Winchester, 577-450 Martini Henry, 577 Snider, 11.15 x 57 Werndl, 56-50 Snider - the only calibers I shoot that aren't obsolete are 45-70 and 38-40! When you shoot the old calibers the actual shooting part is just the tip of the iceberg - doing the research, scrounging up the brass and bullets, tracking down loading dies and crafting rounds that group as they should adds a whole new dimension to shooting.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Leverdude »

Depends I think how a person defines obsolete but I shoot & hunt with a few I couldn't if I didn't reload.

I'v got a 38/55 Marlin 1893 I plan on hunting with but havent yet. I'm still working on a load for it,,,, after 4 years or so. Tricky gun with a .3815+ bore that wont chamber a .382 bullet.

Also have another 1893 in 32/40 I shoot much more & have hunted with but not scored yet.

Have a 1889 Marlin 44/40 thats a great shooter I almost took for my bear last year

An 89 32/20 that probly dont count since you can but ammo for it, though I never have. Its become a favorite.

A 1894 Marlin 25/20 that'll probably kill some squirrels this year.

And another 1889 Marlin project gun I need to get working on that'll be a 38/40 once its done.

I like the oldies & dont figure they can be obsolete if I have a gun to shoot them out of. :wink:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by 2ndovc »

perry owens wrote:40-65 Winchester, 577-450 Martini Henry, 577 Snider, 11.15 x 57 Werndl, 56-50 Snider - the only calibers I shoot that aren't obsolete are 45-70 and 38-40! When you shoot the old calibers the actual shooting part is just the tip of the iceberg - doing the research, scrounging up the brass and bullets, tracking down loading dies and crafting rounds that group as they should adds a whole new dimension to shooting.
Perry Owens

Man i couldn't have said that better myself!

I love the oddball! The more obscure the better.
To me, There's nothing better than pulling out a rifle or pistol at the range or hunt camp and
someone asks " What the heck is that?" and then making the first kill of the day with 100 year old
technology.
Which happened both days in TX a couple weeks ago.
The other rifle I used that weekend that was even more effective was my '86 LW/ .33 WCF.
That round left a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. That old boar was less than thirty feet from
where I shot it.
The old sow that I shot with the .35 WCF did manage to run about 80 yds before she dropped. However she
had two shattered front legs and a bullet path that missed her heart by less than an inch.
Tough old girl!

My 450 Marlin will have the same status someday but for now is one of my favorites!!

jb 8)
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Kansas Ed »

It's funny, I started this whole leverguns thing with obsolete calibers...then lo and behold they got reintroduced....25-20, 32-20, 25-35, 38-40, and 405, and sometimes .348 (they used to make a run of ammo every 5-10 years) are all prime examples. So now I'm still shooting those calibers and have added others to the pot..35 Winchester, 38-72, 40-72, 40-82, and fully expect those to be reintroduced in the near future :lol:

Ed
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by jhrosier »

I suppose that my 10.4x38mm Vetterli might be considered obsolete by some.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Since when did anyone consider a .307, .356, .348, and the .405 obsolete? Heck, I still have brand new in the box guns that I have not had time to even shoot yet in those calibers....and their absolete???? I don't even consider my 43 Mauser obsolete. Maybe my .44-77 is though, but at least I can use most of the same components as the 43!
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Bigahh »

Not sure if it is Obsolete or not, but I love to use my Winchester Model 64 Carbine in 32 Win Special quite often. I sure wish Marlin would chamber this caliber in their XLR series. I think I would get one.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Sixgun »

Geeeeze, it all I shoot, compete, and hunt with. Range is limited but not if you know your distance. (when competing or shootin' steel/rocks)

It takes a real challenge to get a 100 year old rifle/sixgun shooting into 2-3" consistently or for that matter any rifle with cast bullets, but much harder to do with the tolerences of the old days. Gives one a feeling of accomplishment.

The 22-250's, 300 mags etc have their place but the consistent accuracy with no brainer reloading gets boring. My bolt guns all sit in the back of the safe.----------------Sixgun
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by tman »

Old Time Hunter wrote:Since when did anyone consider a .307, .356, .348, and the .405 obsolete? Heck, I still have brand new in the box guns that I have not had time to even shoot yet in those calibers....and their absolete???? I don't even consider my 43 Mauser obsolete. Maybe my .44-77 is though, but at least I can use most of the same components as the 43!
it's a matter of cost and availability that make them obsolete,surley not performance. i want to be able to walk into a box store, or a country store in the boonies and find a few boxes of 348 sitting next to some 243's and 30-06's. and i don't want to pay 4x more than 20 rounds 0f .308. reloading shouldn't have to figure into the equation. i could get by using a 94BB .356 for all my big game hunting. but if i lose, forget, run out of ammo away from home, i'm out of luck. for those reasons i carry either a 308/3006 as back up. :cry:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by lthardman »

.351 Winchester SL (Self Loading) for the Winchester Model 1907. I don't hunt with it (not yet anyway) but I enjoy shooting it. Cartridges can be made, and I do so, but it would be nice to be able to go buy some fresh ammunition.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by missionary5155 »

Good evening
I guess I grew up in a home of obseletes..
I shoot the ;
41 Colt 44 Russian 50-45 38 Colt 7.63 mauser in handguns
44-77 43 Spanish 50-70 32-20 45-60 30-40 in rifles
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by rjohns94 »

450/400 3" for me in my double. I"m thinking the 12 bore paradox round in 2 1/2 inch is obselete too. Just fine by me, cause I love it.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by 457121 »

2ndovc wrote:
perry owens wrote:40-65 Winchester, 577-450 Martini Henry, 577 Snider, 11.15 x 57 Werndl, 56-50 Snider - the only calibers I shoot that aren't obsolete are 45-70 and 38-40! When you shoot the old calibers the actual shooting part is just the tip of the iceberg - doing the research, scrounging up the brass and bullets, tracking down loading dies and crafting rounds that group as they should adds a whole new dimension to shooting.
Perry Owens

Man i couldn't have said that better myself!

I love the oddball! The more obscure the better.
To me, There's nothing better than pulling out a rifle or pistol at the range or hunt camp and
someone asks " What the heck is that?" and then making the first kill of the day with 100 year old
technology.
Which happened both days in TX a couple weeks ago.
The other rifle I used that weekend that was even more effective was my '86 LW/ .33 WCF.
That round left a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. That old boar was less than thirty feet from
where I shot it.
The old sow that I shot with the .35 WCF did manage to run about 80 yds before she dropped. However she
had two shattered front legs and a bullet path that missed her heart by less than an inch.
Tough old girl!

My 450 Marlin will have the same status someday but for now is one of my favorites!!

jb 8)
couldn't agree more. i find the crafting of obsolete ammo part of the fun of shooting. i'm so warped i don't even want anything common. 50-110, 40-82, 38-56, the old British rounds,etc. it used to be much more challenging and expensive. i used to make brass for the 405 and 50-110 from Krag and 348 wcf brass with RCBS case forming dies. it's been about 8 years since i've had to use those dies. Bell basic brass for the Nitro Express rounds and bullet casting was the only option. it's a great thing that some of this stuff has come back. i always take for granted that so many people don't reload or cast.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Pathfinder09 »

I hunt with and load for .348 Win, .405 Win., .45-70.

Hell they are all considered obsolete by todays standards. They sure do get the meat though.

Go figure.

:shock:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Hobie »

The most obsolete cartridge I shoot is the .45-75, if you don't count the Brown Bess musket cartridge... :wink:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by vancelw »

I guess that's three of us with .40-65. Mine is actually a BPCR 1885, but I just couldn't stand it and had to hunt with it two years ago. It worked well, but it's just too dang heavy to tote up and down the MT hills.

Got my eye out for a .30-40, .25-35, or .38-55.

My two .45-70s don't count as obsolete anymore-way too popular.

Heck, does .357 mag count as obsolete, since "everyone" shoots 9mm, 357 Sig, and .40 S&W nowadays? :lol:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by sgtgrinche »

does a 16 guage count :)
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Gobblerforge »

303 Savage for me. I have a buddy that has and shoots a 56-56 Spencer. Then there is the Evans................ :wink:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Off the top of my head, my .45-120 Sharps and .45-60 WCF would both fit the category. You either reload, buy old and expensive, or buy someone else's reload/special run stuff. Why do I shoot them? They are the calibers for two guns I wanted in my collection (an 1874 Sharps reproduction from Pedersoli and a 1876 Winchester reproduction by Chaparrel). Fun shooting both too! :D
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by FWiedner »

I am continually reminded when the gun-porn writers think on the subject, and when the whiz-bang kids begin to boast on their new whiz-bangers, that the .356 Winchester is "obsolete", "dying", and was a "commercial failure".

While I do like to exercise my other hunting arms, the .356 has been my primary hunting cartridge for almost 30 years. I expect this will be true for the next 30 as well.

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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Tumbleweeds II »

The .32 Special isn't obsolete, because Hornady makes its Leverevolution ammo in that caliber :wink: . The .41 magnum, however, apparently is. As a rifle cartridge, anyway.

So, Hornady, when do we get the Leverevolution in .32-20?
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by rjohns94 »

BROWN BESS MUSKET CARTRIDGE??? Got me on that one Hobie. Are you discussing the paper cartridge? Whats your favorite load there? what size ball do you use, bore size? thanks
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by PaulB »

Every once in a while I get a hankerin' after one of those 38-55 1885's. Then I cure myself by reading about reloading it. :lol:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Griff »

Yep, a ".40 2-5/8 BN Express", in my Sharps. Brass is formed and trimmed from .45 Basic or custom ordered.

In its day, it was known as a top target & buffalo round. Using paper patched bullets of 330grains factory loads were about 1700fps. Many top BP shooters have given up trying to get this cartridge to shoot well, it's both a bruiser and finicky. But, oh the challenge! :twisted:
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2ndovc
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by 2ndovc »

PaulB wrote:Every once in a while I get a hankerin' after one of those 38-55 1885's. Then I cure myself by reading about reloading it. :lol:
Once I figured out to keep the velocity down around 1600 fps my in my '94 the 38-55 wasn't so bad.

jb 8)
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Hobie »

rjohns94 wrote:BROWN BESS MUSKET CARTRIDGE??? Got me on that one Hobie. Are you discussing the paper cartridge? Whats your favorite load there? what size ball do you use, bore size? thanks
It has been a learning experience. For buck-n-ball I load a .69 cal ball with buck. That's the only cartridge I use. Patched .715 ball or shot but those are loaded as needed. Which reminds me. I've lost my .690 RB mold... :?:
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Bullard4075 »

I guess that makes four of us now with 40-65s.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by KirkD »

Almost all my cartridges are former black powder cartridges, but the only rifle cartridge that is getting nigh onto obsolete that I shoot and hunt with is .45-60 out of my '76. I also shoot 45 Schofield in my first gen Colt SAA.
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Re: "Obsolete Calibers"

Post by Thunder50 »

A few. 405Win, 38-72Win in an 1895Win and a NEF rechambered from 38-55, then 40-65,43 mauser, 45-70Elko mag and 50-70
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