"High Wall" ? What does it mean?

[Bill_Rights]

I have seen the term "high wall" usually in relation to a rifle, itself, but often combined with reference to the .45-70 Gov't chambering, cartridge or something. I think the term is used often relative to lever rifles (Exclusively?). I think I have seen it used for both Winchester and Browning makes.

What is the origin of the term "high wall", what does it mean, technically, and do I want one?

Thanks, Bill (semi-noob)

[Don McDowell]

Highwall is one version of the John Browning designed Winchester model 1885 single shot rifle. It was available in everything from 22 short to 50-140.

[Hobie]

High wall at the top, low wall at the bottom. "Wall" refers to the sides of the receiver.

[kimwcook]

Like Don and Hobie said. The walls of the receiver determine whether it is called a highwall or a lowwall. There are Winchester, Browning and custom made models. Nice platform.

[Don McDowell]

This might be a bit of "crackpotism" but the more I look at and use the 85's and look at the timeline, I'm pretty convinced that JMB took the idea for his single shot rifle from the CSharps 75, just improoved things a bit by moving the hammer to center mounted instead of side mounted and linked it's operation together with the breechblock.

[AmBraCol]

If I recall correctly, the High wall version of the rifle was available in larger calibers than the Low wall. And it refers (as mentioned above) to the Winchester 1885 single shot, the classiest looking singleshot ever designed in my opinion. You'd want a High Wall if you wanted a larger caliber (45-70, 50 govt, etc) single shot. The Low Wall would make a good pistol caliber single shot.

[Don McDowell]

lowall makes for a dang sweet platform for a 22 as well.

[Old Time Hunter]

High Wall

[Pete44ru]

FWIW, the higher sidwewalls of the Highwall give more support to the breechblock, so the more strenuous chamberings will be found in that action.

What's referred to as the Low Wall has less breechblock support, and was originally found on .22LR practice muskets, but lately (with modern steels) was been seen chambered for more modern loadings, like the .243 & .260 in the Brownings - not to mention the .45 Colt and the like.

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[Bill_Rights]

OK, great answers. Thank you all. The term seems to stem from the old days of single-shot rifles. I would be interested to know how it carries over into newer repeating rifles.

Is it safe to say that all modern repeaters are high-wall style? At least for the more powerful calibers/chamberings?

If that is true, then we don't need to use the term "high wall" about modern rifles because everything is high wall?

[Pete44ru]

The term applies to ANY single-shot (NOT repeating) rifle, of the John Browning patent - whether it was one of the first, produced in 1878, or a modern clone currently produced for Winchester & Browning Arms by Miroku - or any number of OTHER current High Wall makers, like Meachum, Uberti, Pedersoli, Lone Star, and I'm sure several more I've missed.

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[AmBraCol]

If that is true, then we don't need to use the term "high wall" about modern rifles because everything is high wall?

No sir, it has nothing to do with modern repeating rifles. Any use to refer to a repeater would not be a proper use of the term. It only is used to differentiate between the two variations of J.M. Browning's single shot rifle design known as the Winchester Model of 1885. Modern repeating leveraction rifles are built in a wide variety of designs. Marlin and Winchester are the two most commonly found, but there are others as well - some of which are copies of a Marlin or Winchester. The term "High Wall" should not be confused with "High Brass" which is used to designate higher pressure shotgun shells which often have a much higher metal re-enforcement on the head of the case than the lower power "low brass" shells.

[Chuck 100 yd]

So then, is my Ruger security six a high wall or a low wall???

[Buck Elliott]

This might be a bit of "crackpotism" but the more I look at and use the 85's and look at the timeline, I'm pretty convinced that JMB took the idea for his single shot rifle from the CSharps 75, just improoved things a bit by moving the hammer to center mounted instead of side mounted and linked it's operation together with the breechblock.

Not so strange, if you accept the Browning story as so often published & told... (I do...)

John "Mose" was repairing a single-shot rifle in the family's shop, when he remarked that he could build a better gun than the one he was working on. His father (Jonathan Browning) replied (in effect), "I know you can Mose. Why don't you get about it..."

And the rest, so they say, became history.

[Don McDowell]

Buck I think Ol John may have been nosing around the patent office a bit as well. The basic lines of the 75 and his single shot are very similar. About the time he first patented his single shot is about the same time Sharps went under for the last time. Winchester also used as a bragging selling point on the 85 that it used the same lever as the Sharps rifle.

[Buck Elliott]

I think that could all be included in an expanded version of the story above. Why make a trip to the patent office, when JMB probably had a Sharp's in his hands...?

The Sharp's side-hammer action was certainly a throwback to cap-lock technology, which could be ignored in the day of self-contained metallic cartridges, allowing the centrally-hung hammer.

Don't go too hard on John Mose... He had to work with whatever he had at hand. And he always made it better!

There was nothing new under the sun, even in those days...

[Don McDowell]

No sir, not going hard on the ol boy. Giving him a pat on the back mostly

[KWK]

While the breeching of the Browning is the same as on the Sharps (the original Brownings even used the same lever shape), the lock work is completely different. The Browning lock is far simpler, but it could have been made simpler yet. Also, Browning would have been looking at the lock of the '74 Sharps, for the '75 never made it to production. (The current "75" sharps is not the same as the few originals.) The '74's lock harks back to the flintlock days.

I'd have to look over my notes, but off the top of my head, I can't recall any significant earlier action that put the hammer on breech block. Browning's design was unique and worthy of a patent.

[Don McDowell]

Kwk whether or not the 75 made it into production is of little matter. We know there were a few built, and we also know that the patent on the 75 was made in 1869, actually proceeded the 74. The same lever of the 75's,and first run Highwalls was also the same lever of the Borchardt.

[KWK]

The '75 Sharps action was patented in 1876, number 177,852. Regardless, I doubt a fellow from small town Utah spent any money trolling for ideas in issued patents back in Washington, DC. As I mentioned above, the Browning and the Sharps locks share little more than a trigger in common. Browning's was the superior design.

[Don McDowell]

Actually I think I saw somewhere that JMB had been to Washington about then. The completion of the UPRR, made alot of things more probable than hollyweird and the pulp novels might have us believe, both in actual travel, and the mails and express packages.... And as the Brownings were the official armorers for the Mormons, there no shortage of the possibile things they could of been knowledgeable of. Certainly more than a dimly lit cabin at South Pass City, or even the relative loneliness of the Weber Canyon.

[Buck Elliott]

The Brownings' gunshop was located right in the middle of downtown Ogden. The South Pass episode was initiated at US government request, while John M. worked on machine gun designs for our military.

Couldn't have the "enemy" peering over his shoulder at that time, could we...?

[KWK]

no shortage of the possibile things they could of been knowledgeable of

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact the Browning lock has nothing in common any Sharps. The Browning action was not a copy of the Sharps--period.

[KWK]

off the top of my head, I can't recall any significant earlier action that put the hammer on breech block

Oh, woe is me! May the ghost of Charles Ballard grant forgiveness!

(I shall now go and administer 20 lashes to myself.)

[Don McDowell]

Buck didn't they have a shop at South Pass city during the early years of the immigration? Thought I got that from a history book somewheres.

[Buck Elliott]

Buck didn't they have a shop at South Pass city during the early years of the immigration? Thought I got that from a history book somewheres.

John Moses Browning was born in Ogden, in 1855...

Other than that, my rememberizer is losing steam, at the moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning

[Don McDowell]

Well guess I'm going to have to snoop thru a couple of my Wy history books. Might of been JMB's dad that was the armorer at South Pass City.