hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

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Bill_Rights
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Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Bill_Rights »

jlchucker and Forum Respondants to this thread,

Esteemed jlc's comments push me to explain about "my gunsmith" (he's NOT mine). I feel I must defend myself, even though jlc's allegation was gentle and good-natured. He did not accuse me of lying and he did use the word "may". Great maturity was on display. jlc said:
Read all of Bill-Right's posts, Kirk. It seems that there may be no "gunsmith". Modoc ED questioned Bill_Rights earlier...
First of all, I would never tell a lie, just to make a point or escape personal accountability for my opinions/actions/whatever. However, I did simplify the chain of communication a bit and maybe made an assumption that a gunsmith (whom I've never met) originally said what I said he said.

For those that care about the details, here's what happened. I bought a NIB Rossi M92 .454Casull/.45LC 20" barrel off GunBroker (it has not been delivered yet as of this posting date), from one of the many NIB gun dealers there. As I have mentioned, I am new to lever rifles, and I was corresponding with the seller to ask about optics, iron sights, ammo options, payment & shipping details, etc. This dealer said he had one of these rifles I was buying and reloads for it, at least the .45LC. We were also going back and forth also on iron sights versus optics, and the problem was, I wanted iron sights, but the rifle came from (?) Rossi (?) the importer (?) the distributor (?) with a scope rail already installed that covered up where the dove-tail notch would be to receive the rear iron sights. The seller couldn't tell if there ever was a dove-tail cut, and he would have to remove the scope rail to see. I asked the seller to put the rear factory iron sights back on and ship the scope rail loose. Hearing that, he said he would take the rifle to the gunsmith he always uses, for two reasons: a) to properly remove the rail and re-install the factory rear sight, including avoiding scuffing the blueing and/or touching it up if he did and b) give me an opinion/quote on cutting a rear-sight dove-tail if one wasn't there under the factory scope rail. Turns out, there was a factory-cut dover-tail under the scope rail, so the gunsmith didn't have to mill one. So that person, whoever he/she is, IS THE GUNSMITH I quoted. He'as in another state. Never met him; never expect to.

Meanwhile, amongst many other topics, the seller was trying to prompt me to get into reloading and was giving me a run-down on cartridge components and wrote:
Bullets ... for cast bullets I use Missouri bullets. Lead will be good up to about 1000 fps or so. If you want to go faster you'll need to look at a plated or jacketed bullet. Those can be had from a variety of places ... but you MUST drive them faster to make them work well. That will probably mean you'll need to use a different powder than you do in your cast loads.
So, here's where the simplification/assumption came in. For the purposes of this thread, I assumed that the GB seller had talked the (unknown, to me) gunsmith, and I attributed the seller's opinion about the 1000 fps limit for lead bullets to the gunsmith. Maybe the seller never talked with his gunsmith about this. Maybe the seller got this information from his local reloading buddies. I don't know. What matters is, there is a substantial group of reloaders out there who are working under the belief that you can't push lead bullets much beyond 1000 fps. That's pretty certain, and I did not make this up and it was/is not my opinion, I got it from someone else.

Having explained all that, I still think this GunBroker seller/dealer did a great job serving me, and I will give him excellent feedback on GunBroker, after I receive the rifle and inspect it. I can forgive the seller for giving me this one wrong fact, about lead bullets limited to ~1000 fps. It didn't scare me off of lead bullets. I bought 200 rounds of Cowboy Action-loaded bare lead .45LC from Georgia Arms, to go along with the new rifle. Decent price @ $0.60 per round, new brass, incl. $19 shipping from Georgia to Virginia. The catalog quotes these as somewhere around 850 fps out of a pistol, so I figure I'll still be inder 1000 fps out of a 20" rifle. That's probably a safe move for me, since I have no information from Georgia Arms that they use advanced lead alloys (wheel weights!) that are good above 1000 fps for their component bullets. No crime has been committed. All is right with the world.

FYI, I will NOT reveal the identity of my GB seller. He is not on this forum, at least not with any "handle" I recognize, and I use a different "handle" on GB for myself. I will send this seller a link to this thread, so he can educate himself (and maybe his guilty-as-sin gunsmith!) about > 1000 fps lead boolitts!
Don McDowell

Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Don McDowell »

:?: Started out a gunsmith, turned out to be a gb seller :roll:
Otto
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Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Otto »

Bill_Rights wrote:...Meanwhile, amongst many other topics, the seller was trying to prompt me to get into reloading and was giving me a run-down on cartridge components and wrote:
Bullets ... for cast bullets I use Missouri bullets. Lead will be good up to about 1000 fps or so. If you want to go faster you'll need to look at a plated or jacketed bullet. Those can be had from a variety of places ... but you MUST drive them faster to make them work well. That will probably mean you'll need to use a different powder than you do in your cast loads.
That is strange of him to say, if he buys his bullets from Missouri. They offer bullets of varying hardness for different applications, and discuss it on the main page of their website.
"...In this present crisis, government isn't the solution to the problem; government is the problem." Ronald Reagan

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Bill_Rights
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Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
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Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Bill_Rights »

OK,
Started out a gunsmith, turned out to be a gb seller
, but this "seller" is a dealer with years of experience, a reloader and an FFL. It's not like he's someone like me, just selling one used gun. I quoted him as an "authority" attributable to his gunsmith (who, for all we know, still believes bare lead is limited to ~1000 fps). I apologize for the loose attribution. But the way my dealer talks about his gunsmith and their constant working together (which they demonstrated to me, RE the sights/optics rail), I would put it at 70%:30% that, indeed, this one gunsmith believes bare lead is limited to ~1000 fps. I will try to find out, in due course.

My main point remains, there are a bunch of people out there laboring under the misinformation that bare lead bullets are limited to ~1000 fps.

A secondary point, if you want me to try to support it, would be: Yes, there probably are a lot of gunsmiths out there who don't reload, don't deal with ammunition issues, don't know or care about bare lead bullets, are not up to speed on modern bare lead bullets and just focus just on the guns themselves. None of us would deal with such a gunsmith, but I bet there are some. Look at it this way. To expect every gunsmith to know/care about hand-cast bare lead bullets would be like expecting every school-trained medical doctor to know details about herbal medicine, or homeopathic remedies. Just ain't gonna happen, no reason it should happen and we shouldn't expect it to happen.

And if you want, I'll give up and concede I was wrong on both points. Do we have polls on this board? I'll set one up for the membership to vote with.

Look, I didn't start this thread to asssert any dearly-held belief or point of my own. I asked a question about an area I was foreknowingly ignorant about. I wanted to learn. I may have phrased my question in a provocative way, just to get good board responses going, but that is something I learned from the OP of the thread who declared it "improper" that shooters lower their lever guns from their shoulder to cycle the action.
2X22
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Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by 2X22 »

Good gravy. :|

Surely we don't want to be running an up and coming levergunner off, do we? :?

2x22
"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." - Thomas Jefferson
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Bill_Rights »

2x22, Thanks for the policing. Don't worry, I ain't going anywhere. In the words of Peter to Jesus (paraphrased), "Where else am I gonna go?"

Back to thread business:

What about soft lead bullets in micro-grooved rifling? I didn't even know there was such a thing, till I saw this exchange over on THR:
Poster - I'm asking for opinions (pros and cons) between the Marlin 1895 and the 1895 cowboy.
Respondant - If you handload, you may find that the Micro-Groove rifling doesn't like cast bullets. IIRC, the Cowboy model has cut rifling that is compatible with cast bullets...so that may be a consideration.
2X22
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Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by 2X22 »

No policing from me! :o

Just a bit bummed about a few of the responses. :?

I've been here since right after Leverguns got its start over a decade ago and like to see things be pleasant here. :D

2x22
"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." - Thomas Jefferson
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Bill_Rights »

2x22,

Sorry to mis-state, about you policing.

No, I am a big boy and can take a little knocking around. I don't feel that any poster/responder has been out of line. Just challenging, that's most of it. And, I did step outta line, a little, by invoking a "gunsmith" when it was really a dealer. (Won't go through all that again.)

The forum did heap ridicule on the alledged "gunsmith", but I did not take that personally. Maybe when my dealer or his gunsmith read the thread, THEY will take it personally. OK, so I'll be in more hot water for mis-representing them! But, hey, if it wasn't for hot water, I wouldn't have any water at all....
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Modoc ED
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Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Modoc ED »

Bill_Rights wrote:2x22, Thanks for the policing. Don't worry, I ain't going anywhere. In the words of Peter to Jesus (paraphrased), "Where else am I gonna go?"

Back to thread business:

What about soft lead bullets in micro-grooved rifling? I didn't even know there was such a thing, till I saw this exchange over on THR:
Poster - I'm asking for opinions (pros and cons) between the Marlin 1895 and the 1895 cowboy.
Respondant - If you handload, you may find that the Micro-Groove rifling doesn't like cast bullets. IIRC, the Cowboy model has cut rifling that is compatible with cast bullets...so that may be a consideration.
Well, here's something for you to consider. Microgroove rifling shoots cast bullets just fine. It's an old myth that microgroove rifling doesn't shoot cast bullets accurately. Not true. Shoots just fine. So it seems the guy that you quoted above kinda falls into the same category as the gunsmith who said cast bullets over 1000fps weren't practical because of leading.

I have never meant to be negative in any of my posts to you. It's just kind of surprising to me that you'd never heard of wheel-weight composition cast bullets and now never heard of microgroove rifling. That's ok. No problem with it what-so-ever -- just kind of surprising to hear it from what we now know is an experienced shooter and reloader.

Keep asking your questions. That and reading are the best way to gain experience along with on-the-job/hands on experience too.
ED
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Bill_Rights
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Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: hand-cast lead BOOLITTS !?

Post by Bill_Rights »

As a youth and in my twenties I just shot guns without caring how they were made or about the technology, and the only thing I have reloaded (also long time ago) was shotgun shells.
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