Cleaning from the muzzle - or not?

86er · Post by **86er** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:56 pm

I've always cleaned guns by inserting the cleaning rod into the breach end, whenever possible. The few guns this doesn't happen with are my revolvers and Winchester leverguns. In both instances I use a muzzle guard before putting the cleaning rod in. Now it has occurred to my that millions of guns, which includes the bulk of Winchesters, have been cleaned from the muzzle end. Those guns are still accurate and servicable in most cases. I have rarely seen an actual example of a damaged crown caused by cleaning from the muzzle. So - is this over-hyped? Is cleaning from the breach end over-rated as a neccessity? Who cleans from the muzzle with no guard and has not suffered the worst for it?

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:01 pm

I have to admit I don't run a rod done the bore very often, but I have never used a muzzle guard.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:13 pm

I use a muzzle guard when cleaning from the muzzle. I do it out of habit more than anything. I don't clean my bores a hole lot, kind of depends on the gun, but I do clean them more then some people I know.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:21 pm

I have about a dozen Moisin Nagants of various pedigrees. Every one of them has excessive muzzle wear or has been counterbored to correct excessive muzzle wear. This is due to cleaning from the muzzle with the issue (steel) cleaning rods by illiterate and poorly trained peasant conscripts. These soldiers were specifically forbidden to remove the bolts from their rifles for fear they would lose them, only their sergeants had the authority to remove them. It is not unusual to find a Garand with excessive muzzle wear from cleaning, again with the issue steel rod. I have an 1886 Winchester that has almost no rifling visible for at least an inch down into the muzzle, again from cleaning. It IS a problem, but use of a bore guide and/or coated rods will aleviate it.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:29 pm

I clean those that I can remove the bolts from the breach end. Others such as my leverguns get cleaned from the muzzle with a muzzle protector.
I've had rifles with worn muzzles so I strive to avoid doing this myself.

Joe

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:34 pm

Until I got an Otis kit I would clean from the muzzle but not anymore. Now I use my Otis on all my guns that dont have easy access for a rod through the breach.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:43 pm

I've not personally seen a rifle with muzzle damage that could be attributed to carelessly wallowing a rod around while cleaning. I've always read that it can happen, but I've not actually seen it.

I've got a Mini-14 that's almost 30 years old that still shoots nutz-on and the only thing I've ever used to clean it is a 3-piece steel rod from an old M-16 cleaning kit I got when I was I the service. Same rod I use on all my .22's.

I have a few that can only be cleaned from the front-end, and I don't much care for bore-snakes, but I've always been pretty careful by using my fingers as a "bore-guide" if you will, to prevent my tools from riding on the crown.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:51 pm

I use a bore guide when cleaning from the muzzle or the breech.

I clean levers from the muzzle usually, even the Marlins.

My bore guide stays on my range rod and goes with me to the range along with the cleaning cradle and cleaning supplies.

I clean before leaving the range so when I get home all I have to do is a quick wipe and slip them in the safe.

I have never owned a rifle with cleaning rod damage to the bore, as far as I know.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:54 pm

jnyork wrote:I have about a dozen Moisin Nagants of various pedigrees. Every one of them has excessive muzzle wear or has been counterbored to correct excessive muzzle wear. This is due to cleaning from the muzzle with the issue (steel) cleaning rods by illiterate and poorly trained peasant conscripts. These soldiers were specifically forbidden to remove the bolts from their rifles for fear they would lose them, only their sergeants had the authority to remove them. It is not unusual to find a Garand with excessive muzzle wear from cleaning, again with the issue steel rod. I have an 1886 Winchester that has almost no rifling visible for at least an inch down into the muzzle, again from cleaning. It IS a problem, but use of a bore guide and/or coated rods will aleviate it.

But how do you know it's from poor cleaning from the muzzle. I've also read where many of these old mil-spec guns were shot so much the throats of course but also last part of the bore gets the most erosion. The author claimed it was caused because that is were the most vibration accurs. Vibration in the throat as the bullet is being stabilized and vibration at the muzzle end of the barrel because it is the thinest lightest part of the barrel. ????

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:56 pm

I think you and others here are on it Joe. As long as one uses reasonable care, and a plastic bore guide is even better, a fellow should not have any trouble with undue wear. I have family guns which were cleaned from the muzzle for many decades(often by a clumsy kid) and they still exhibit good strong rifling at the muzzle. I like a brass rod and keep it clean of grit. I believe that wear at the muzzle from cleaning is mostly hype. If you scrape it excessively and carelessly along the crown, like some conscripted soldier, and especially with a stainless rod, it's gonna wear. Reasonable care, the right rod, and the gun is made of good steel, no worries. Normal cleaning with 100% cotton will do little to wear a bore as well, in my humble opinion.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:33 pm

Never had a gun with damage AFTER it became mine; a few mil-surp ones I've seen did though.

I wouldn't clean a 'match' grade gun from the muzzle, or if I did, it would be to gently insert the plain rod with a pull-through patch holder, then put the patch in the chamber-end of the rod that protrudes there, and pull it out the muzzle. With the 'BoreSnake' now, I'm with JReed - I never clean a smallbore gun from the muzzle. It isn't hard to keep a rod off a .44 Mag or larger muzzle, though, just using your fingers as a 'guide'.

I DID have a "recess-crowned" barrel slide along a counter edge it was leaning on, and hit the base of a vice 'just right' to put a HUGE nick in the muzzle.

THAT forms the basis of why I'd like every gun I own to be threaded for a 'bird-cage' flash suppressor - to protect the muzzle WAY better than a 'recessed crown' ever could.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:50 pm

I use one of the brass muzzle guards and a reasonable amount of care - never has hurt any of the rifles accuracy wise. My 94 has over 600 rds through it an will shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yds.

Alan Wood · Post by **Alan Wood** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:35 am

While I currently subscribe to the theory that more bores have been cleaned to death than shot to death this thread does bring another possible another possible scenario to mind. Specifically that the gasses escaping around the bullet as it exits the muzzle erode the rifling at the muzzle. Hm

At least for now I reject this theory and will protect the rifling at the muzzle when cleaning my weapons.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:50 am

My conclusions on this are that most muzzle damage comes from years of water just getting in there and left alone. I have come in from the rain many times and there is allways some just in the muzzle. I have seen loads of rifles with slight rusting damage from such.
A steel rod ain't going to do you any favours with out a guide muzzle end or breech IMO.

My rods are plastic coated and are never rolling around in dust and grit.

Nath.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:24 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:But how do you know it's from poor cleaning from the muzzle. I've also read where many of these old mil-spec guns were shot so much the throats of course but also last part of the bore gets the most erosion. The author claimed it was caused because that is were the most vibration accurs. Vibration in the throat as the bullet is being stabilized and vibration at the muzzle end of the barrel because it is the thinest lightest part of the barrel. ????

I doubt that conclusion, the wear around the throat is from gas erosion, and the muzzle end form excessive cleaning and corrosive ammo. If barrel harmonics caused wear like that, then wear ever pressure points in the barrel are, then it would wear. I haven't seen wear spots like that in any barrel I have seen.

Steve

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:29 am

I use aluminum cleaning rods, and try to be careful not to scrape the muzzle as I clean. I also use different bore cleaners, some to remove copper, some lead, and let them do the work, which I don't have to scrub with the rods as much as just using Hoppe's.

Steve

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:33 am

I have also heard the theory that early attempts at ball powders (double base) put the heat out toward the muzzle and accelerated erosion...not my theory, but it's been touted by many more knowledgeable than I.

Personally I just use a brass cleaning rod. Aluminum works well too. I use Nylon or brass jags...with those types of rods out there I just don't understand why anyone would use a steel rod. You can buy aluminum ones at Walmart for a few bucks.

Ed

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:37 am

I use a brass muzzle protector and nylon coated cleaning rods on my Winchesters and Trapdoors, otherwise, through the breech.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:47 am

JReed wrote:Until I got an Otis kit I would clean from the muzzle but not anymore. Now I use my Otis on all my guns that dont have easy access for a rod through the breach.

+1

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:54 am

I gave up on cleaning rods about 15 or so years ago. Bore Snakes can be fed from the breech on everything, including levers. Micro groove barrels shine like a mirror from three passes of a snake. I can scrub revolver cylinder chambers back and forth a half dozen times and remove heavy fouling.

I hung on to my old rod cleaning kits, after getting snakes, thinking I would have a need for them the moment I disposed of them.

I split them up into calibers my two budds use about 4 or 5 years ago and have never missed them.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:00 am

It all comes down as to whether the person cleaning the gun has an IQ lesser or greater than 55. But.............in the old days, the "cleaners" were told to "keep 'em clean", as the primers/powders were more corrosive. They did this without the proper knowledge of keeping the rod clean and from contacting the rifling, so...................yep, I've seen dozens of old guns with worn muzzles, some from improper cleaning and some that were just shot out. You take care, use common sense and your rifles will shoot just as good in 40 years as they did when new.

I believe we all overclean out bores. I did an experiment several months ago with an original 1895 Winchester in 30-40 Krag. I shot it 100 times each on 4 different days (400 rds.) without cleaning, all with cast @ 1800. I could not tell a difference in accuracy, but......................its an 1895 Winchester, not a .22 PPC benchrest rifle. Yea, I know, not much of an experiment--depends on your level of expected accuracy, condition of your bore, loading techniques, velocity, rapidity of fire, etc, etc,etc..........

As for damaging the muzzle, well, I'd rather damage the muzzle than the throat as it sure is easier cuttin' off an inch than it is replacing the barrel.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:01 am

JReed wrote:Until I got an Otis kit I would clean from the muzzle but not anymore. Now I use my Otis on all my guns that dont have easy access for a rod through the breach.

Jeremy...

I've thought about buying one of the Otis kits, sure seem like they would be handy and compact. As a kid we had one of the forerunners to the Otis and Boresnake cleaning systems. It was a small fishing weight crimped onto a string with a piece of cloth at the other end. It was all we had for cleaning dads .22.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:00 am

A break action or bolt gun gets cleaned through the breech. My leverguns get cleaned through the muzzle. I don't use a bore guide when cleaning through the muzzle, but I'm careful and try to keep the rod centered in the bore. No worries, mate. I have yet to encounter a problem. I think it has to do with the knowledge that one can cause wear by being sloppy and the old timers weren't aware of this and so it was a problem.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:10 am

I only use steel rods which I believe are less likely to get impregnated with carbon grit and are easy to keep clean. I dislike the nylon coated ones which seem the most likely.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:59 am

At home in my shop when cleaning my Winchesters and revolvers, I use the cone-shaped brass muzzle guards and clean from the muzzle end. I even do this with my Marlins from time to time if I'm just wanting to do a quick job.

For the field, I carry bore snakes of the proper size along with a colapsable cleaning rod should a solid rod be needed...

Bolt guns and autoloading pistols get cleaned exclusively from the breach.

I've seen plenty of older rifles with muzzle wear from cleaning rods - the military rifles are the most abused.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:31 pm

I've cleaned barrels from the muzzle with and without a muzzle guard with no apparent damage; however, now-a-days, I use bore snakes. Very quick to use and I can use them from the breech end of the barrel no matter what type of rifle.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:46 pm

RKrodle wrote:As a kid we had one of the forerunners to the Otis and Boresnake cleaning systems. It was a small fishing weight crimped onto a string with a piece of cloth at the other end. It was all we had for cleaning dads .22.

Hey, that's exactly what I did, also with dad's .22. Dad's been dead nearly 30 years but I still have that .22.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:05 pm

I had an M1A with a GI barrel. I took the flash hider off and found the most damaged crown I've ever seen in a rifle. Had Springfield recrown it.

Jointed rods are evil. I think aluminum rods are worse than steel because they hold grit and bend more easily. It's better to avoid cleaning from the muzzle if at all possible (perhaps an exception for .44 and larger bores).

I believe we all overclean out bores.

Probably true. My favorite practice is using a boresnake immediately after the shooting session (right at the range), before the carbon has time to "set up" and harden. Later, run a patch or two with an Otis "rod" to oil the bore and prevent rust, usually Hoppes #9.

Otis is not foolproof either. I managed to lose a patch in the bore when it slipped off the Otis jag.

Got a short rod and managed to tap it out later, after soaking it in oil.

JB · Post by JB » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:19 pm

The average deer hunter would probably never realize the damage, but for someone shooting benchrest or serious about accuracy, the barrels can become damaged very easily with cleaning rods. I have a few rifles I never touch with a cleaning rod unless it's from the breech and I'm using a bore guide. I don't worry about a bore guide on my hunting rifles.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:23 pm

Chas. wrote:
RKrodle wrote:As a kid we had one of the forerunners to the Otis and Boresnake cleaning systems. It was a small fishing weight crimped onto a string with a piece of cloth at the other end. It was all we had for cleaning dads .22.
Hey, that's exactly what I did, also with dad's .22. Dad's been dead nearly 30 years but I still have that .22.

You guys would be rich now if you'd have patented the concept...

76/444 wrote:I gave up on cleaning rods about 15 or so years ago. bore Snakes can be fed from the breech on everything, including levers. Micro groove barrels shine like a mirror from three passes of a snake. I can scrub revolver cylinder chambers back and forth a half dozen times and remove heavy fouling. I hung on to my old rod cleaning kits, after getting snakes, thinking I would have a need for them the moment I disposed of them. I split them up into calibers m two budds use about 4 or 5 years ago and have never missed them.

Pretty much all I use a rod for now (vs. a 'BoreSnake') is if I buy a used, pitted-up gun I'm trying to scrub back down to actual metal. Even then, I take the time to clean from the breech, and have two of the Tipton 'carbon fiber' rods that work really well - the really long one is awkward, but helpful on guns like leverguns or long action bolt guns that 'eat up' a foot of rod that never even gets into the barrel.

Bill_Rights · Post by **Bill_Rights** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:38 pm

++1 for the Otis method

Here is all you need, at $9.79 from MidwayUSA (stock # 348653). Everyone should have one in every bag, box, kit or pants pocket they own.

I agree with someone above who said the main reason for bore-to-muzzle cleaning is to protect the throat area.

I also agree with someone (or two) who pointed out that the plastic rods collect more grit. I will be more careful to wipe my Otis "flex rod" each time before use.

P.S. - I HATE bore snakes now. The Otis makes them completely obsolete.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:46 pm

Really, I think it is all about common sense and going easy and just being careful.In fact, my wife likes to use her own cleaning kit(on her own guns,and yes, she cleans her own guns "by choice")

I think she got her's for like $20 or so (on sale) for like an 85pc set with aluminum hardshell case included.

Really------------------Any should about do!

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:01 pm

RKrodle wrote:
JReed wrote:Until I got an Otis kit I would clean from the muzzle but not anymore. Now I use my Otis on all my guns that dont have easy access for a rod through the breach.
Jeremy...

I've thought about buying one of the Otis kits, sure seem like they would be handy and compact. As a kid we had one of the forerunners to the Otis and Boresnake cleaning systems. It was a small fishing weight crimped onto a string with a piece of cloth at the other end. It was all we had for cleaning dads .22.

I only started using them in the past 4 years When the Corps started buying them for our weapons. They are really nice kits to have. The ones we use have accessory's for .22, .30, .45, .50, 12ga and more. So they clean just about every thing. I also like that they come in small zip up pouches that clip easy to a belt or a pack with external gear loops. When I am deployed or on a field op I clip mine to the loops on my Black Hawk M9 leg holster with my extra Mags makes for a nice package.
http://www.otisgun.com/cgistore/store.c ... 24230.7836

Boreman · Post by **Boreman** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:39 pm

I use muzzle guards on all of my leverguns. I have never seen any actual muzzle damage that was caused buy a cleaning rod.I do it because that was what I was taught.It doesn't take any more time to clean a barrel that way and I figured it can't hurt so why not.
I make my muzzle guards out of the neck ends of rifle cases that just fit inside the muzzle then I anneal the guard. Works for me.

InTheWoods · Post by **InTheWoods** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:21 pm

Old Savage wrote:I only use steel rods which I believe are less likely to get impregnated with carbon grit and are easy to keep clean. I dislike the nylon coated ones which seem the most likely.

Yep, I agree. A few years ago, I spent much time reading the benchrest shooting forums. These guys shoot A LOT and clean A LOT. They are sticklers when it comes to cleaning, accuracy, and bore wear; but even their thinking on rods evolved over the time I read the forums. One thing they did agree on was to stay away from brass and aluminum rods due to the grit that ended up imbedded in them. For a while they all seemed to use cleaned Dewey coated rods, and then the trend was (and may still be) to hardened steel rods. I use the steel ones, but have good things about the new graphite rods.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:31 pm

Question for you fellas. How does grit get imbedded in a smooth brass rod? I wonder if this is really an accurate description of what is happening, if it happens at all. Muzzleloaders of the competitive variety use brass rods, and except a few who use Rayl barrels or similar, the barrel steel is vastly less wear resistant. Those brass rods also go down those barrels ALOT more times than a smokeless firearm......maybe three times as much but just a guess. Some of those fellas have 50-60K round balls through their guns and they still use them in competition. I've never heard of a problem with a brass rod picking up grit, as long as it is smooth. Aluminum is more rough but I guess it's possible. Just a few thoughts/questions.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:02 pm

It is not that grit gets embedded in the rod so much as sand and other natural occurring abrasives stick to any oil residue or other liquids on the rod and then get drug through the bore. Much like wet sanding the rifling in your gun.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:14 pm

Hey Jeremy,

Got ya my friend. But just wondering how a stainless rod would hold less grit while a brass one would hold more. Aluminum maybe as it is usually pretty rough. Any metal rod, being equally smooth, should hold about the same amount of grit no? Grit holding aside, the stainless would theoretically be harder than brass and harder than some barrel steels, and would be more wearing on the crown(if it contacted the bore alot). The Bevel bros. in Muzzle Blasts built a machine which was designed to test rod materials on bores(at the crown). Brass and Wood did not appreciably wear the bore while fiberglass and stainless, I believe, did. Fiberglass seemed to be the worst of the lot for wearing their barrels.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:18 pm

I don't know to be honest. Even if a brass rod was all scratched up it is still softer then the barrel or else we wouldn't use brass brushes.

KSRtrd · Post by **KSRtrd** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:36 pm

Otits and nylon muzzle guide, thinking that leaving wet in the muzzle has pitted a few of my old guns I always dry em off after I come in. Yoou are convnceing me about bore snakes gets a bit tiresome cleaning older rifle(s) that have seen the days when primers was corrosive.