.38 Spl. man stopper?

KentuckyLevrgunr · Post by **KentuckyLevrgunr** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:03 am

I'm thinking about picking up a Ruger LCR for my first concealed carry gun but I'm not sure how confidant I am in the .38 Special cartridge it's chambered for. My first choice is a 4" 1911 clone in .45 ACP, but they're relatively expensive and heavy. I've always considered 9mm to be the minimum personal protection round but I can't find a .38 Spl. factory load that can match a 124 grain 9mm in muzzel velocity. So here's the question, could a 125 grain Speer Gold Dot safely be pushed by a reloader to 1000 fps from the LCR's 1.9" barrel?

the telegraphist · Post by **the telegraphist** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:23 am

Short range manstopper, nothing wrong with a 38spl 150/158g soft nose LSWC driven at over 800fps. The 9mm that can do that has not been invented yet. Better still a 4 inch 357 with 125g HP. Personal preference I dont like the 9mm. 45acp or 40S&W in an auto fine.

SJPrice · Post by **SJPrice** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:35 am

Take a look at the Corbon DPX 38 +P's. My understanding is they are pretty effective in any caliber and or cartridge.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:02 am

For most of a century, just about every lawman in America counted on a .38 Special, and no one questioned its effectiveness, Keep in mind, this was mostly with the 158 gr. lead roundnose bullet load, which virtually no one recommends as a defensive load today.

Get a .38, practice enough to hit what you
are shooting at, and don't worry about it.

TCB in TN · Post by **TCB in TN** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:54 am

A 38spl will do a good job. Lets face it the .38spl and the 9mm are for all intents and purposes the 9mm and the .38spl +P+ are ballistic twins. (I picked the two following loads because they are what I have loaded here at home.)

A std 9mm 125gr runs about aa80 fps for about 383 ft/lbs of energy.

A 158 P+ .38spl runs about 1000 fps for about 351 ft/lbs of energy.

Now different loads will give you different results, BUT overall the performance of the two are not that far apart.

Further more as was mentioned above the .38spl has been used for years in police work, and from personal experience I can give some comment on it ability to knock down live flesh. When I was about 10 my grandpa (who worked as a guard at a local factory) had a bunch of goats. Heard them pitching a fit one evening, so he and I ran out to check(he had only grabbed his old model 10 38spl). When we got out to the barn there were several dogs trying to get into the goats (packs of strays were pretty common back then). Pa yelled at them to run them off, one was a big shepard mix that was close to 100 lbs, he turned towards us and started growling. Pa just pulled out the old model 10 and plugged him. 1 rd right under the chin through the chest, he flipped over and that was that.

After I grew up I have a similar experience with a 75lb pit bull that was killing my chickens. A similar old model 10 (which was the only pistol I had at the time put two rounds into the chest of the critter from about 15 ft. He didn't go very far.

Big dogs are a lot tougher than people, a .38spl in the wheel house will do plenty to take care of business.

Don't get me wrong, bigger IS better BUT in a carry gun, its like this. For it to work you have to 1st actually carry it, and 2nd be able to actually hit something with it under stress. So if something works in both areas I don't see anything wrong with it.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:17 am

You're stuck on the "light bullet, high velocity" mindset. The 38 outshines the 9mm when it comes to heavy bullet loads. I don't think ANYONE makes a 9mm in anything over 130 grains. Last summer I got to play a bit with a LCR shooting 158 grain FMJ ammo, if I recall correctly it was in a +P configuration too. That was the ammo we had and that is what we shot. I was amazed at how shootable the little piece was with those heavy loads. It was very controllable even shooting fairly rapid fire.

No, it's not a 45 - but it's a very packable piece. Take a look at Corbon or Buffalo Bore heavy 38 spl loads for "social work". Or play around and build your own +P level ammo for it. The LCR is what I'd have in my pocket if I could get one down here. It's compact, lightweight, easy to shoot and will handle any reasonable defensive load you can cook up for it. It is far easier to pack around than the larger guns and helps you to fulfill the first rule of gunfighting - always have a gun. It's ugly as home made sin but when it comes to doing what it was designed to do it's downright beautiful.

We're limited to 158 gr RNL factory ammo here, and it only generates about 690 fps out of a 4" barrel. But it gets the job done when proper shot placement is used. So pick up an LCR, a few boxes of ammo and learn to shoot it. Then load it up, drop it in your pocket and go about your business.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:37 am

Here's a couple of items which show what the 38 spl can do.

Buffalo Bore heavy loads
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l= ... _list&c=22

Buffalo Bore standard pressure loads - note that the velocities quoted are for short barrel revolvers.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l= ... _list&c=23

900 fps out of a 2" barrel is not something to sneeze at. And a 158 gr LSWC hollow point at 850 fps is a pretty decent load too. And these velocities should be achievable out of the LCR. Plus they use a special low muzzle flash powder for the standard pressure loads.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:43 am

And then there's Corbon.

125 gr 950 fps out of a 1.875" test barrel.
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Self-Defense- ... 00/Product

110 gr 1050 fps out of a 4" barrel.
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Self-Defense- ... 00/Product

Of these two I'd choose the first one. But the Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWC is what I'd REALLY rather have in this caliber and for this application.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:56 am

KentuckyLevrgunr wrote:I'm thinking about picking up a Ruger LCR for my first concealed carry gun but I'm not sure how confidant I am in the .38 Special cartridge it's chambered for.

-----------------------------------

Depends,... where do you plan on hitting your target.

Same answer for any caliber , in any bullet weight or speed.

per:... the telegraphist,... I have some 9mm 147gr. 900fps that do very nicely for what they were created to do.

Molasses · Post by **Molasses** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:04 am

I don't think ANYONE makes a 9mm in anything over 130 grains

147gr. loads were the fad amongst law enforcement just a few years ago, IIRC. Pretty sure most of the big makers still catalog 'em.

For example:
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/ ... spx?id=394

Back to the .38 Special. The 158gr lead SWCHP .38 +P load (often referred to as the "FBI load" "Metro load" or some such) has been frequently recommended for guns that can handle +P.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:09 am

Molasses wrote:
I don't think ANYONE makes a 9mm in anything over 130 grains
147gr. loads were the fad amongst law enforcement just a few years ago, IIRC. Pretty sure most of the big makers still catalog 'em.

For example:
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/ ... spx?id=394

Back to the .38 Special. The 158gr lead SWCHP .38 +P load (often referred to as the "FBI load" "Metro load" or some such) has been frequently recommended for guns that can handle +P.

Thanks, I'd forgotten the 147 gr loads in 9mm. We don't get much variety of anything down thisaway.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:18 am

As the late legendary lawman Bill Jordan used to say:

The only cartridge to kill more men than the .38 S&W Special is the .22 rimfire.

Let me see if I remember correctly. That Ruger LCR has a polymer grip-frame and trigger-guard, with an aluminum alloy frame and a steel barrel and cylinder. Is that correct? Is that hideous little popper even rated to take +P loads?

Even if it is rated for +P and +P+ loads, it won't be comfortable shooting them.

Use a heavy bullet load or forget the LCR and get a pocketsized .357 Magnum. A 150-158 grain bullet, preferably with a flat-nose profile at around 900 fps will penetrate plenty deep enough and hit hard enough to punch a badguy's ticket. IF you put it in the wright place.

If you insist on light bullet, high velocity, the .38 S&W Special is not for you. Get an S&W M-649 Bodyguard or M-640 Centennial in .357 Magnum. Then you can shoot 125 gr. JHP's at over 1200 fps in factory loads.

Paul,

The probable reason you forgot the 147 gr. 9 mmP loads is the fact that they were not popular for very long. For a while the gun press touted them as being better manstoppers than the 115 gr. JHP's in sub-sonic loads. Then came a string of spectacular failures t stop and the gun press quit beating the drum and started tolling the death bell for the 147 gr. Sub-Sonic loads. i think all or nearly all departments that adopted the 147 gr. Sub-Sonic loads dropped them for either 115 gr. JHP's or .40 S&W's within a year or two of adoption.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:30 am

I like that 9mm 147g truncated cone flat point, but it penetrates almost as much as .45 ACP hardball: just one jug shy of the 45. It's likely that it's going clean thru and causing damage beyond. Good cat/dog load though.

The "fbi" load is in our small revolvers. I haven't gotten around to the penetration tests yet but the press on it is encouraging and it's about as good as you'll get for a squeeze gun unless you want to get a .357 snub. That's a fun gun if you've the grip strength!

Grizz

wavetrain75 · Post by **wavetrain75** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:40 am

There's a fair number of reasonably priced .357 snubbies available, the Taurus 605, as one example. If you have any doubts about your .38 you can always step up to the .357. Best of both if you ask me.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:40 am

I believe the 38 spl is a fine defense round when decent loads are used, however, I don't agree with this statement "For most of a century, just about every lawman in America counted on a .38 Special, and no one questioned its effectiveness, Keep in mind, this was mostly with the 158 gr. lead roundnose bullet load, which virtually no one recommends as a defensive load today."

People were questioning its effectivenesss as early as the 1920's, which is why the 38-44 came about, and ultimately the 357 magnum. The RN bullet in 38 spl has never been an impressive performer on anything other than small game as far as I can tell. The "impressive" performance on small game is because it doesnt damage much meat. Better bullets changes the picture completely.

Mokwaw · Post by **Mokwaw** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:57 am

I think the .38 would be fine. Personally I believe there is too much concern over a one shot stop. Get a copy of Mas Ayoob's "IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME" and read it thru a couple of times. Lots of good advice in there should you be in a gun fight. I think I remember him writing that if its necessary to shoot the threat, shoot until the threat is over.

Most of the time I carry a Keltec .32 acp because it fits in my pocket easily and carry 1 extra mag. ( I'm a jeans and t-shirt guy) but if I have on a long tail shirt or jacket it's a Keltec 9mm on the belt and 1 extra mag. I try to be constantly alert when I'm in the city or walking across a parking lot, hopefully I won't get taken by surprise, and hopefully just showing the gun will change the perps plan but if not a mag full of bullets at arms length should.

Just my 2 cents.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:45 am

Doc Hudson wrote:As the late legendary lawman Bill Jordan used to say:
The only cartridge to kill more men than the .38 S&W Special is the .22 rimfire.
Let me see if I remember correctly. That Ruger LCR has a polymer grip-frame and trigger-guard, with an aluminum alloy frame and a steel barrel and cylinder. Is that correct? Is that hideous little popper even rated to take +P loads?

Even if it is rated for +P and +P+ loads, it won't be comfortable shooting them.

Doc, I shot it this past summer with 158 gr "Lawman" ammunition. FMJ 158 gr IIRC. And I believe it was +P ammo. The little popper was surprisingly easy to handle. It's hideous to look at, but controllable to shoot. I was surprised. The last thing I expected was for as light and ugly of a revolver to as the LCR is to shoot fairly easily. It's almost as ugly as the g-g-gl... tupperware pistol, but is easier for me to wrap my brain around.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:59 am

>People were questioning its effectivenesss as early as the 1920's, which is why the 38-44 came about, and ultimately the 357 magnum.

They questioned it for use against automobiles and the crude-by-today's-standard body armor of the day, not against humans, both of which items were in fairly-new vogue for criminals. In fact, many, many police departments in that time were still using things like the .32 S&W Long and .38 S&W, and the special was considered a powerhouse anti-personnel round.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:52 pm

mozambique,

two in the body, one in the head.

who shoots just once?

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:03 pm

Here is my .38 Taurus. Its the older style stainless steel and is DAO and weights 20 oz. Its heavy enough to hold up to +P or +P+ loads but light enough that it isnt pulling my pants down. I did have the S&W 642 but never really cared for it, plus the wife and my daughters would not shoot it because of the recoil with even IMO a moderate load (125 grn LSWC @ 800 fps). As far as the .38 spc being a man stopper, it will work, are ther other calibers I would prefer, YES, but this is the best compromise that I find in terms of power and concealability.

I did have a SSG that I served in the Army with that was shot by his mom's husband (he didnt consider him a step father) during a dispute over her estate, the old man took out one of his lungs, thankfully it didnt hit his heart, with a .38 snub loaded with wadcutters. This guy is a pretty big size guy and works out alot to boot. He stated to me later that when he got shot he was down for the count and was not able to move. NO HE DIDNT DIE, but he stated he was no longer a threat to anyone! That being said, always remember, when it comes to self defense, if its worth shooting once, shoot it twice! DOUBLE TAPS ARE THE MINIMUM STANDARD IN SELF DEFENSE!!!

EDIT: POKEY I have to laugh, we were headed the same direction with that post but I was still typing my comments and only seen yours after posting them.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:27 pm

There is nothing wrong with a 38 Special. Ammo is a lot better now. Speer makes a 130 grain load just for snub guns that has a good track record in shootings. I have seen people shot with all common calibers and my conclusion is if they are hit three times between the tip of the ribs and the collar bone they are down. This is no matter what the caliber or angle. If you have to shoot just let them have it.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:27 pm

In the hands of a good man with a sixgun, the 38 Special with good ammo is a very good defensive round. If a fellow can't shoot a sixgun, then nothing else will be any better.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:35 pm

Charles wrote:In the hands of a good man with a sixgun, the 38 Special with good ammo is a very good defensive round. If a fellow can't shoot a sixgun, then nothing else will be any better.

I couldn't say it better (and I tried for 20 minutes

). I carry a .38 Spec. Colt Cobra or S&W 642...

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:55 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote: EDIT: POKEY I have to laugh, we were headed the same direction with that post but I was still typing my comments and only seen yours after posting them.

great minds think alike.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:35 pm

As they say, anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

I just handled an LCR today for the first time. It sure is light enough to be handy without getting in the way. A major concern if you're going to carry. If it's not easy you might just not do it.

If I didn't already have a 640 I think I'd go with an LCR.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:56 pm

AmBraCol wrote:
Doc Hudson wrote:As the late legendary lawman Bill Jordan used to say:
The only cartridge to kill more men than the .38 S&W Special is the .22 rimfire.
Let me see if I remember correctly. That Ruger LCR has a polymer grip-frame and trigger-guard, with an aluminum alloy frame and a steel barrel and cylinder. Is that correct? Is that hideous little popper even rated to take +P loads?

Even if it is rated for +P and +P+ loads, it won't be comfortable shooting them.

Doc, I shot it this past summer with 158 gr "Lawman" ammunition. FMJ 158 gr IIRC. And I believe it was +P ammo. The little popper was surprisingly easy to handle. It's hideous to look at, but controllable to shoot. I was surprised. The last thing I expected was for as light and ugly of a revolver to as the LCR is to shoot fairly easily. It's almost as ugly as the g-g-gl... tupperware pistol, but is easier for me to wrap my brain around.

At least it has a cylinder {aul, at least it has a cylinder.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:54 pm

Mokwaw wrote:I think the .38 would be fine. Personally I believe there is too much concern over a one shot stop. Get a copy of Mas Ayoob's "IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME" and read it thru a couple of times. Lots of good advice in there should you be in a gun fight. I think I remember him writing that if its necessary to shoot the threat, shoot until the threat is over.

Most of the time I carry a Keltec .32 acp because it fits in my pocket easily and carry 1 extra mag. ( I'm a jeans and t-shirt guy) but if I have on a long tail shirt or jacket it's a Keltec 9mm on the belt and 1 extra mag. I try to be constantly alert when I'm in the city or walking across a parking lot, hopefully I won't get taken by surprise, and hopefully just showing the gun will change the perps plan but if not a mag full of bullets at arms length should.

Just my 2 cents.

the pf-9 loaded with buffaloe bores' +p+ 147 grainers should do the trick

KentuckyLevrgunr · Post by **KentuckyLevrgunr** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:05 pm

AmBraCol wrote:You're stuck on the "light bullet, high velocity" mindset.

Well, not so much stuck on the "light bullet, high velocity" mindset, just inexperienced with ballistics. I was under the impression that the extra velocity gained by the 125 grain bullet would offer deeper penetration than a 158 grain at around 850 fps. So would most people agree that I'd be best off with a 158 grain +P loading?

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:15 pm

When I am too feeble to handle magnums in my SP101 snubbies, I will load them with 158-grain LSWCHP +P .38 Specials, and not lose one wink of sleep. As I near retirement from this peace officering business, I look forward to toting my snubbies more of the time. As for the LCR, well, I do have my S&W J-snubs, one an Airweight, so I am not in need of such critters, but might try one in a couple of years, once the budget stabilizes. Part of me likes polymer better than aluminum; I did tote Glock duty pistols for a couple of years before switching to my current SIGs, so I acquired some immunity. Polymers of today are really something, shrugging off impacts that leave dings and gouges in aluminum alloy pistol frames.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:28 pm

I do really like that Ruger LCR

And the tests showing on GunBlast showed that with the BB +P Ammo, they got "basically" 1000fps with the 158grs (986fps) out of that short barrel, it also get's 14" of penetration in Human Flesh.(supposedly??)
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCR2.htm

Or also using some Grizzly Extreme stuff would work well. Yep, I would like one of those.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:35 pm

KentuckyLevrgunr wrote:
AmBraCol wrote:You're stuck on the "light bullet, high velocity" mindset.
Well, not so much stuck on the "light bullet, high velocity" mindset, just inexperienced with ballistics. I was under the impression that the extra velocity gained by the 125 grain bullet would offer deeper penetration than a 158 grain at around 850 fps. So would most people agree that I'd be best off with a 158 grain +P loading?

Have you heard of John Linebaugh and the Sixgun Seminars? They've shown how heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities can penetrate amazingly well. If I could, I'd be playing around with 200 gr bullets in the 38 spl and 357 mag.

We aren't allowed to mess around with such down here and I've no idea when I'll get up north again.

And it's not just penetration. The RNL bullets penetrate very well - but that pointy tip gives very little resistance and thus you lose a lot of shock potential. The LSWCHP is a good alternative in this round. What I pack most of the time when up north is a Taurus 44 spl. But if I had an LCR I'd be stoking it with SWC profile bullets, probably in LSWCHP format. And yes, I would trust it more than the jacketed 125 gr. Does anyone make a 125 JSP or JHP designed specifically for the 38 spl? Methinks most of them are designed for the 357 which means they'd not open up that smartly at the lower velocities.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:08 pm

Have you heard of John Linebaugh and the Sixgun Seminars? They've shown how heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities can penetrate amazingly well. If I could, I'd be playing around with 200 gr bullets in the 38 spl and 357 mag. We aren't allowed to mess around with such down here and I've no idea when I'll get up north again.

And it's not just penetration. The RNL bullets penetrate very well - but that pointy tip gives very little resistance and thus you lose a lot of shock potential. The LSWCHP is a good alternative in this round. What I pack most of the time when up north is a Taurus 44 spl. But if I had an LCR I'd be stoking it with SWC profile bullets, probably in LSWCHP format. And yes, I would trust it more than the jacketed 125 gr. Does anyone make a 125 JSP or JHP designed specifically for the 38 spl? Methinks most of them are designed for the 357 which means they'd not open up that smartly at the lower velocities.

==================================

I am if the same school. I prefer 300 gr. subsonic for ccw wheel gun, to light and fast. Have had them both over the decades,... but always come back to the flat fat ones.

336A · Post by **336A** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:09 pm

All the bad guys that decided to shoot it out with the late Jim Cirillo of the famed NYPD stake out squad would say so if they could talk. Follow the advice that AmBraCol gave you and get you some 158gr +P LSWCHP ammo. Those of us that use the little snubs are already at a diadvantage as the short barrel don't allow the cartridge to get a full head of steam. Since this is revolver is going to be used to possibly save your bacon (God forbid) keep the odds in your favor. The Rem version of the 158gr +P LSWCHP seems to be the best of the lot that is offerd by the big three as it will expand from a snubby. here is some more good reading on this subject for you enjoy.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%2 ... LSWCHP.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%2 ... 20Test.htm

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:04 pm

Pisgah wrote:For most of a century, just about every lawman in America counted on a .38 Special, and no one questioned its effectiveness, Keep in mind, this was mostly with the 158 gr. lead roundnose bullet load, which virtually no one recommends as a defensive load today.

Get a .38, practice enough to hit what you
are shooting at, and don't worry about it.

+1 on both counts. Law Enforcement didn't drop the .38 Special because of it being ineffective, but instead because they wanted the magazine capacity of the then-new "wonder 9's".

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:34 pm

use the 158 lead +p FBI load. ithas dropped enraged brown bear at charging distances.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:12 pm

I load an "all-around" 38 Special load of 158 LSWC or LSWCHP over
4.5 gr. of 231. This is supposed to be a +P load, but is easy on the
hands in my Model 10. I think it would be fine for social work, especially
the hollow point version.

I did a little bit of measuring on my Model 10, and the cylinder length
is the same as on my Model 60 in 357 Magnum. The cylinder is just
counter-bored a wee bit shorter on the Model 10 to restrict it to the
38 Special cartridge. I've seen published loads as high as 4.9 gr of 231,
and I believe one could go even higher than that in this revolver if
one wanted to and worked the load up carefully.

But what everybody else has said is correct: Keep your cool, place
your shots well, and the 4.5gr (or whatever your standard 158 gr. load is)
load will do just fine methinks.

I like 115 gr. bullets in the 9mm, myself. It's the right combination of
velocity and bullet weight for a JHP. Note that JHP bullets are generally
considered to need more speed in order to expand properly. A 147 gr.
LSWCHP might be terrific in a 9mm, but I don't know of anybody who
makes one. I haven't found that bullet yet, so I haven't tried loading
it! (I suppose I COULD swage a 158 gr. 38 Special bullet down to .356
and shave the base until I got to 147 gr. and try it........) Of course,
there MIGHT be the odd feeding problem with that bullet configuration
in a semi-auto, too.

Hence the 115gr jacketed load...

-Stretch

Fiddler · Post by **Fiddler** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:55 pm

I grew tired of these never-ending "what round will best kill a human" internet debates a long time ago.
I'm now an old geezer, and all of my life I heard that the .22 rimfire fired from a Saturday Night Special has killed more humans in America than every other caliber in civilian hands.
Most of Audie Murphy's kills in WWII were accomplished with the puny little M-1 Carbine, the round that most internet experts agree cannot possibly kill a man under most circumstances.
Could it be possible that the best "man-stopper" is the firearm that someone is actually willing to point at another human being and pull the trigger for whatever reason?

scarville · Post by **scarville** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:21 pm

I hope this doesn't stir any fat in the fire but I carry Federal 125 gr Nyclads. It was originally designed for the Chiefs Special which is what I carried for years. There are newer loads that may offer a bit more performance and I tried several when I bought the 442. However, I went back to the Nyclads when they were reintroduced last year because they are good enough and, if I were to go down, I know my wife or daughter can shoot a gun loaded with them.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:23 pm

IIRC, many years ago one of the gun writers ran a test of the .38 Spec'l. as a "personal defense" round. The primary "test" revolver was either a S&W Chief's Special or a Colt Dectective. Some of the the most promsising loads were also tried in a Smith Model 10 or 15.

I can't remember the 'zact' load, but a devastating round fired into gelatin and 'phone books(??) was a revesred hollow based wad cutter. The recovered bullets expanded to approx. .69 caliber. Impressed me.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:34 pm

Rexster wrote:When I am too feeble to handle magnums in my SP101 snubbies, I will load them with 158-grain LSWCHP +P .38 Specials, and not lose one wink of sleep. ...

Right there with ya Rex.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:47 pm

">People were questioning its effectivenesss as early as the 1920's, which is why the 38-44 came about, and ultimately the 357 magnum.

They questioned it for use against automobiles and the crude-by-today's-standard body armor of the day, not against humans, both of which items were in fairly-new vogue for criminals. In fact, many, many police departments in that time were still using things like the .32 S&W Long and .38 S&W, and the special was considered a powerhouse anti-personnel round."

I disagree on several points, but am not going to pursue a discusion about it any further.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:04 pm

I have a 2 inch Rossi that I have carried several years loaded with the 125 grain Nyclads. When I carry my .38 I feel that they will do the job.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:07 pm

Still used today by the Calif deptment of Corrections!Must work.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:33 pm

model55 wrote:Still used today by the Calif deptment of Corrections!Must work.

Sorry, DOC is NOT an endorsement. (and I work for a DOC). My agency uses G17s with 125gr UMC "Starfire" HPs. Frankly, I'd rather carry my SP101 with .38 158 LSWCHP+Ps...

KentuckyLevrgunr · Post by **KentuckyLevrgunr** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:47 am

Thanks for all the help. Think I'll go with the 158 grain LSWCHP or maybe a 135 grain Gold Dot. Would the 158 grain Gold Dot expand at 2" .38 Spl. velocity?

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:28 pm

I carry a CZ-75 with 124gr Gold Dots. Wondernines are good if you are planning on being attacked by a mob.

Actually, my main reason for it is that I can use it like a revolver (just pull the trigger, no safety) and because it points well (way better than any revolver I've ever tried) and because I could easily put a tritium front sight on it.

I agree, the caliber does not matter all that much (.38 Spl is fine). Might matter for drug-crazed fiends, though.

I've always looked for the 158gr LSWCHP's for my revolvers, but never found it on the store shelves where I live. Thought that was kinda strange, since they are so famous.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:09 pm

PaulB wrote: I agree, the caliber does not matter all that much (.38 Spl is fine). Might matter for drug-crazed fiends, though.

That's why I bought this .454 "for the wife"

and she really shoots it too In fact-- better than some of my buddies

http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-c ... bull-3.jpg

She carries one of them "big" designer handbags!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:14 pm

Pisgah wrote:For most of a century, just about every lawman in America counted on a .38 Special, and no one questioned its effectiveness, ---------Get a .38, practice enough to hit what you
are shooting at, and don't worry about it.

This mirrors my sentiments exactly

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:00 pm

PaulB wrote:I've always looked for the 158gr LSWCHP's for my revolvers, but never found it on the store shelves where I live. Thought that was kinda strange, since they are so famous.

I agree Paul, I haven't found 158 grn LSWCHP on a store shelf since the early 90s I think. Back then Winchester made them if I recall correctly. I am providing a LINK for RIMROCK BULLETS. They have a 158 grn SWCHP with gas checks and a brinnell hardness of 5. I havent purchased any yet but have been thinking about it. They are a bit pricey IMO when you consider you could get a Jacketed Bullet for less.

http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/i ... ucts_id=74

336A · Post by **336A** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:51 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote:
PaulB wrote:I've always looked for the 158gr LSWCHP's for my revolvers, but never found it on the store shelves where I live. Thought that was kinda strange, since they are so famous.

I agree Paul, I haven't found 158 grn LSWCHP on a store shelf since the early 90s I think. Back then Winchester made them if I recall correctly. I am providing a LINK for RIMROCK BULLETS. They have a 158 grn SWCHP with gas checks and a brinnell hardness of 5. I havent purchased any yet but have been thinking about it. They are a bit pricey IMO when you consider you could get a Jacketed Bullet for less.

http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/i ... ucts_id=74

The 158gr +P LSWCHP can be elusive to find at times to be sure. However Remington and Winchester do still make it, you may have to special order it. As far as I know Federal has ceased production of their version. Horsesoldier I would save your $ and buy some Hornady 158gr LSWCHP bullets. I load them over 5.4gr of Unique to duplicate the factory ammo for practice and they are very accurate and do not lead at all. The above load will actually exceed the factory loads but but not by a whole lot. Most times the factory loads will get about 900fps out of a 4" service revolver were the Unique load will get around 950fps.