Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Bear 45/70 wrote: You know, like a double charge of pistol powder (you shouldn't be using pistol powders in a cartridge with the case size of the 45/70 to start with) or have a squib load and not check the barrel before firing another round. .
Define pistol powder?
There's a couple cazillion perfectly safe pressure tested loads with both cast and jacketed bullets for the 45-70 that have been used since those "vile" pistol powders were invented. So using good data most likely doesn't have anything to do with what ever it was that happened in this instance.
With that blown case still attached to the bolt, and the blown primer and ruptured case in the magazine, I'm not of a mind it was a "stuck" bullet from a squib load.
Old Savage wrote:Hatcher in his Notebook says, I believe, they could shoot bullets stuck in the bore out with the next round if they were not at least 2/3 of the way down the barrel.
I might try that in a borrowed benchrest gun in .22 Hornet with lead bullets if the barrel was at least 2" in diameter, and I was standing WAY off to the side...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Don McDowell wrote:[quote="Bear 45/ You know, like a double charge of pistol powder (you shouldn't be using pistol powders in a cartridge with the case size of the 45/70 to start with) or have a squib load and not check the barrel before firing another round. .
Define pistol powder?
There's a couple cazillion perfectly safe pressure tested loads with both cast and jacketed bullets for the 45-70 that have been used since those "vile" pistol powders were invented. So using good data most likely doesn't have anything to do with what ever it was that happened in this instance.
With that blown case still attached to the bolt, and the blown primer and ruptured case in the magazine, I'm not of a mind it was a "stuck" bullet from a squib load.[/quote]
I would say that your reading skills are lacking. The OP said there was a squib round then the next round was an explosion. The OP talk with those there, but you know better I see. On the pistol powders, there is no valid reason to use them in a case as large as the 45/70. It is too easy to double charge and not notice and there is no increase in performance over the rifle powders which fill the case to the point where a double charge runs powder out all over the bench. Pistol powders are fast burning powders requiring only a small quantity of powder to get the job doe in a small case. You know, like most pistols use. Way to often I am amazed at people attitudes, like yours and then you are still amazed when something goes wrong.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Well it's enough for me to swear off hot-roddin'. No more pistol stuff in big cases for me. If it doesn't fill 3/4 full or more, I won't load it anymore.
My wife wishes I'd give it up completely anyhow (at least the reloading part). She read over my shoulder and noticed those pictures. "What the heck happened to THAT?"
: On the pistol powders, there is no valid reason to use them in a case as large as the 45/70. It is too easy to double charge and not notice and there is no increase in performance over the rifle powders which fill the case to the point where a double charge runs powder out all over the bench. Pistol powders are fast burning powders requiring only a small quantity of powder to get the job doe in a small case. You know, like most pistols use. Way to often I am amazed at people attitudes, like yours and then you are still amazed when something goes wrong. [/quote]
So you in your vast amount of experience and expertise have never used , reddot,greendot,unique,bluedot,4756,4227 or 2400 powders for reloading rifle cartridge?
The OP also tried laying the blame at the feet of someone for using a single stage press, and the like. That sort of blame doesn't make for a very convincing statement either.
handyrandyrc wrote:Well it's enough for me to swear off hot-roddin'. No more pistol stuff in big cases for me. If it doesn't fill 3/4 full or more, I won't load it anymore.
My wife wishes I'd give it up completely anyhow (at least the reloading part). She read over my shoulder and noticed those pictures. "What the heck happened to THAT?"
You need to explain to your wife, that yes accidents can happen. Whether it be from negligence or ignorance.
But that there are those of us that load and fire thousands of rounds every year without mishap, and those that do experience catastrophic mishap such as happened on this tread probably represents less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of the rounds fired by folks who pay atttention to what they are doing when the carefully handcraft reloaded ammunition.
Well, bottom line for me, is that this was shooter error. If something sounds funny or doesn't recoil right, it is time to STOP. I don't think the rifle or manufacturer should take any blame.
I still wish I knew the load though. If it was a warm load, then having an extra bullet to push down the barrel essentially doubles the bullet weight and pressures skyrocket. If it was a very light load, then it's possible in some cases the pressures wouldn't go high enough to blow the chamber, just like when people intentionally load two round balls in the .45-70. In that case it would still take more investigation to figure out why it blew, and a double charge might be the cause. In fact it may be possible that when loading, he got the powder in the wrong case, so one case was double charged and the adjacent case was empty.
It looks not only like shooter error, but also loader error.
Don McDowell wrote:But that there are those of us that load and fire thousands of rounds every year without mishap, and those that do experience catastrophic mishap such as happened on this tread probably represents less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of the rounds fired by folks who pay atttention to what they are doing when the carefully handcraft reloaded ammunition.
Probably more like less than 1/1000th of 1 per cent, given the TENS or HUNDREDS of thosands of rounds many folks have reloaded and never had such an accident, or even known personally another reloader who has had one...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Well then junior you need to back your butt down until such time as you have knowledge and experience to be able to even begin to sally forth with some of the uneducated nonsense you've been trying to put forth,about what is and isn't proper powder for what.
Fellas....this is rare opportunity to learn about a blow up. Let's not get this thread locked. Joe and his friend have made this incident transparent so we could learn from it.....they should be praised for doing so as it takes a bit of bravery. It always brings out the "this guy was an idiot" type of stuff. I've made mistakes and so have all of us....I am overly cautious, but still have to say "there but for the Grace of God go I." Let's keep it civil, or use the Private Message thing if someone gets your goat.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
C. Cash wrote:Fellas....this is rare opportunity to learn about a blow up. Let's not get this thread locked. Joe and his friend have made this incident transparent so we could learn from it.....they should be praised for doing so as it takes a bit of bravery. It always brings out the "this guy was an idiot" type of stuff. I've made mistakes and so have all of us....I am overly cautious, but still have to say "there but for the Grace of God go I." Let's keep it civil, or use the Private Message thing if someone gets your goat.
This theory hasn't been posted... and it's not a bad one - if only for perspective. Seems to have a bit of forensic experience behind it too...
-------------------------
The upper left bullet, case fragment, and powder in the action look to me to be from a burst round in the magazine tube, after the main explosion. Can't see what's left in the barrel, but could be two bullets. The good old SEE (secondary explosion effect) results from a bullet getting started then stalling, whereupon the powder "chuffs" creating reflecting & reinforcing pressure waves which create local overpressure at the breech. This is a random condition but was more often seen with reduced charges of slow powder ( allowing airspace) in bottleneck cases. I could envision a stuck bullet a couple inches in front of the chamber mimicking that, with those long bullets (500 gr.?).
This could happen in 155 mm howitzers too, if ignition was poor, because the shell was rammed forward into the rifling, then the powder bags were inserted into the chamber with the black powder igniter charge against the breechblock to take the force of the primer. If the bags were too far forward, or turned around so the igniter charge was forward, poor ignition could result and the resulting reflecting pressure waves from the chuffing could blow out he breechblock. The breechblock face was actually hemispherical to mitigate the condition as much as possible. These separate loading howitzers had chamber space for bags up to charge 7, but were usually only fired with charge 4 or charge 5 in practice, to reduce barrel wear, so there was always airspace in the chamber and we always had to be cautious about powder positioning. It wasn't good if the shell were not properly rammed and slid back onto the powder, either.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
There are alot of things that could of caused this rifle to let go.
Metal fatique from the thinness of the chamber being constantly ran at or above the equivilant of proof loads , would seem to be leading indicator.
Excessive pressure from an over charge of fast "rifle" powder, when running at extreme levels that some think the Marlin can handle, even a few tenths of a grain can cause things to go into overload,especially if theres an ambient temperature swing.
Oil on the case/in the chamber is how the government aresnals proofed 03 springfields.
To much crimp will jack pressure out of sight.
Could of been an anomoly the result of "neck sizing" a case that doesn't have a neck, and the forward portion of the case that's not amungst us anymore went down the tube still firmly attached to the bullet, creating a rather vicouus pressure spike.
No one has as yet provided any of the data of the load supposedly used. Until that very basic detail is provided there'll continue to be speculation on what happened.
jnyork wrote:Would someone drive a wooden stake through the heart of the thead, please?
I'm starting to agree with ya. I'll have ta go out to the shed to see if I can find a piece of rope and then tie a "Hangman's Knot" in it. Still, there's been a lot of knowledge and info given in this thread.
Old Ironsights wrote:
This could happen in 155 mm howitzers too, if ignition was poor, because the shell was rammed forward into the rifling, then the powder bags were inserted into the chamber with the black powder igniter charge against the breechblock to take the force of the primer. If the bags were too far forward, or turned around so the igniter charge was forward, poor ignition could result and the resulting reflecting pressure waves from the chuffing could blow out he breechblock. The breechblock face was actually hemispherical to mitigate the condition as much as possible. These separate loading howitzers had chamber space for bags up to charge 7, but were usually only fired with charge 4 or charge 5 in practice, to reduce barrel wear, so there was always airspace in the chamber and we always had to be cautious about powder positioning. It wasn't good if the shell were not properly rammed and slid back onto the powder, either.
I'm glad I never had to load one of those. Just being around those big bags of blackpowder (especially if in a confined space) would make me nervous!
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Old Ironsights wrote:
This could happen in 155 mm howitzers too, if ignition was poor, because the shell was rammed forward into the rifling, then the powder bags were inserted into the chamber with the black powder igniter charge against the breechblock to take the force of the primer. If the bags were too far forward, or turned around so the igniter charge was forward, poor ignition could result and the resulting reflecting pressure waves from the chuffing could blow out he breechblock. The breechblock face was actually hemispherical to mitigate the condition as much as possible. These separate loading howitzers had chamber space for bags up to charge 7, but were usually only fired with charge 4 or charge 5 in practice, to reduce barrel wear, so there was always airspace in the chamber and we always had to be cautious about powder positioning. It wasn't good if the shell were not properly rammed and slid back onto the powder, either.
I'm glad I never had to load one of those. Just being around those big bags of blackpowder (especially if in a confined space) would make me nervous!
Heh... my first MOS was 13B... and my Unit was an 8" (203mm) unit. Big Boom.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Well then junior you need to back your butt down until such time as you have knowledge and experience to be able to even begin to sally forth with some of the uneducated nonsense you've been trying to put forth,about what is and isn't proper powder for what.
Two things, first I'm not junior to anyone, especially you and as to my knowledge level, you have no clue. I've been doing shooting, building and modifing guns and reloading for close to fifty years, haven't blown up a gun yet and won't listen to you to start now. Your arrogance is only exceeded by you assumtions.
Don,
Come on now,lets shake hands(I mean words) with Bear 45/70
He is a good guy. Besides someone that has 50 years experience
and has not blown up anything has my vote.
PS check out the last sentence above the picture of his cool gun.
which is his wisdom statement of each thread
Not me,I am not getting on his bad side. I am not saying he is an old
man,but just mildly aged,
madman4570 wrote:Don,
Come on now,lets shake hands(I mean words) with Bear 45/70
He is a good guy. Besides someone that has 50 years experience
and has not blown up anything has my vote.
PS check out the last sentence above the picture of his cool gun.
which is his wisdom statement of each thread
Not me,I am not getting on his bad side. I am not saying he is an old
man,but just mildly aged,
Well, Blue Dot and 2400 are real, real close and 2400 is loaded in cat sniff loads for 45-70 all the time.......In a pinch, I really don't see the problem.......Just looked and the Lee manual has Blue Dot and 2400 loads for 45-70.......All those dots work in pistols to an extent, as well....I use nothing but Blue Dot in .357 and .44mag........
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First
Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
BlaineG wrote:Well, Blue Dot and 2400 are real, real close and 2400 is loaded in cat sniff loads for 45-70 all the time.......In a pinch, I really don't see the problem.......Just looked and the Lee manual has Blue Dot and 2400 loads for 45-70.......All those dots work in pistols to an extent, as well....I use nothing but Blue Dot in .357 and .44mag........
I dont have a problem with it either. ive got plenty of manuals that reccomend 2400, unique, 4227 etc. just got to watch what youre doing like we should be doing using any powder.
Define pistol powder? 
On the pistol powders, there is no valid reason to use them in a case as large as the 45/70. It is too easy to double charge and not notice and there is no increase in performance over the rifle powders which fill the case to the point where a double charge runs powder out all over the bench. Pistol powders are fast burning powders requiring only a small quantity of powder to get the job doe in a small case. You know, like most pistols use. Way to often I am amazed at people attitudes, like yours and then you are still amazed when something goes wrong. 
